1963 Buick Lesabre Third Member

Discussion in 'The "Juice Box"' started by foofer, Dec 21, 2013.

  1. foofer

    foofer Member

    Here's my issue. I bought this car for my Army buddy and spent a few weeks doing general maintenance, repair, etc on it. I went to drive it to him and the yoke started to wobble at the third member. I promised the young man a cool driveable car and now it isnt. I'm on the line to make good on my offer. I've pulled the member and I see chatter on the carriage. My knowledge of this issue stops here. I've gone further into this car than I ever have any other car simply to try and save face, learn something, and save money. I'm a bit freaked out. The car is jacked up, wheels off, axles out, third member removed, and I'm on the dance floor. I've got the nads to continue, but I need some help guys. What do I do now.? The pinion itself doesn't look torn up, and neighter does the ring gear, although the pinion is loose. Do I replace the carriage, the carriage bearings, the pinion, pinion bearings, crush sleave and seal, help..! Thanks for any advice. 1216131536-01.jpg Any information you could give me on the identification of the third member to assist me in finding parts would be great.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  2. yachtsmanbill

    yachtsmanbill Well-Known Member

    Since no one else has the "nads" Im gonna step up; Im sure thatll bring the exspurts outa the wood work! Lets start from scratch... on something 50 years old, theres always the possibility that the yoke seal was changed in situ. That parts pretty easy, BUT, the pre-load needs to be reset on the pinion bearings via the crush sleeve. The carrier actually needs to come out to do this. USUALLY, and that is with a big U, a pre used crush sleeve is used to set the pinion depth; theres shims under the gear head. After that's set up, the unit is taken apart and a new sleeve installed. USUALLY, an inch pound wrench is used to set the pre load, like 10-12 INCH POUNDS to turn the pinion gear. That, and the crush sleeve needs to be "Coaxed" with an impact wrench. That part is a technique all to itself!
    Next, the carrier and ring gear are installed. Youll need to check side to side clearance with feeler gages. Theres shims on each outboard side of the bearings. USUALLY, about .005 - .008 side clearance is good and should give you a back lash at the two gears of about .005" with a dial indicator. These are arbitrary numbers since the last one I did was around 1970.
    While its apart, Id check the spider gear shaft and retaining bolt. That's a cross bolt about 3-4" long through one end of the spider shaft. Nads or not, consider buying a new "pumpkin" (whole assembly) from a junk yard, if you can find one. I think most big early 60's GM cars will fit.
    If you have the shop manual, it should walk you through the deal pretty thoroughly. Bill in TR
     
  3. foofer

    foofer Member

    Thank you yachtsmanbill. I'm tracking about 80% percent of what you said. I'm sure Id understand better if I had the shop manual for the car. I will look for one. I had thought the local classic shop might be able to fix this, but the guy passed on the job at the last moment. Now its up to me. I'm open to buying a new pumpkin but I'm green at this and I don't want to order the wrong part. I almost felt comfortable buying one and then at the last minute I learn the spline count on a 62 is different than on a 63. Now I have to wonder what else could be differerent that I dont know to look for. I've watched guys change pinions, bearings, crush sleaves, on youtube so I'm fairly comfortable going forward there and really had hoped that's all I would have to do. Now I'm looking at a carrier and having a wtf moment because I can't even figure out how to remove that. I included a picture of the side of it where the axle enters it. The inner brass ring looks to be held in place by pressure. Do I somehow spread this metal apart to relieve pressure on the brass ring so that it can be extracted, and then the carier pulls out? Do I disassemble the ring gear and that somehow gives me the ability to extract the carrier? I guess the manual will tell me. Meanwhile I pay storage until the book gets here.... omg..lol... I can't win.
     
  4. yachtsmanbill

    yachtsmanbill Well-Known Member

    Being from a little town consider having the guy there source a rear gear. An older guy will know off hand whatll work whereas the young kid will wanna sell you the whamadine super turbo metric gear set for a grand and the gears will sing a song of sixpence. Quite a few years ago I blew out the rear on my '70 455 GS. A pal had a 12 bolt posi out of a monte carlo he gave me. It was a direct swap, barring speedo accuracy. Go talk to Joe the Mechanic and see what he says. Everything from here is armchair conjecture! Bill

    ---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

    It also looks like the pinion has just been touching the carrier, Have you even tried tightening the pinion nut? Hold the yoke with a pipe wrench and snug the nut a "hair" at a time. I don't think the bearings would be wasted as they usually stay pretty wet... Bill

    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241385

    for future reference
     
  5. SpecialWagon65

    SpecialWagon65 Ted Nagel

    You are on the right track looking for a manual. There are a couple special tools for working on them.
    where are you- I've got several 65 spares here.
     
  6. yachtsmanbill

    yachtsmanbill Well-Known Member

    Foofers' from Aurora, Mo. Bill in TR
     
  7. lapham3@aol.com

    lapham3@aol.com Well-Known Member

    These are pretty stout and rarely fail. For your situation, I'd do a boneyard search for another punkin. I think maybe a '62 would also work, but there is an axle/spline count change somewhere in there. Ask Cameoinvicta on this site-he's been through all this-good luck!
     
  8. CameoInvicta

    CameoInvicta Well-Known Member

    If your going to swap the third member, you need to find one from a '63-'65 fullsize Buick. The early '61 & '62 units have 33 spline axles, rather than 30 spline axles like yours. Also, a Riv third member will not work, as it uses a companion flange, not a standard u-joint flange.

    And just in case you don't know what you have there, it's a Buick 9 3/8in third member with a Dana style Power Lock posi unit. Those posi units were used through '64 and are super strong. In '65 they started using an Eaton spring style posi unit, which is good, but in my opinion not as good.

    You might want to contact Monzaz here on the board. He is able to rebuild these posi units, and I believe the complete third member. I'm not sure what that would cost, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being $100 to ship the third member one way. If Ted has a used third member that would work, that might be your best bet. Good luck!
     
  9. foofer

    foofer Member

    Wow... so much good infomation here. Thanks for the replies guys. I knew about the spline count issue as I had a chance to buy a pumpkin off a 62 and turned it down after researching a little. I wasn't sure exactly what I have so I really appreciate getting that answer. Now I can ask for the right manuals, tools, parts, and so forth. Hopefully I canjust buy a new pumpkin somewhere. I'll keep you posted as to what I discover and decide to do. Here's a little sidebar fun fact.... carrying the third member to my basement gave me a hernia and I'm headed to the doctor monday. I feel an operation is in my future because I don't know any other way to cure 10lbs hanging off my left one. By the time its all said and done I could probably have bought the kid 2 cars, and not hurt myself. I think Buick has beaten me.

    ---------- Post added 12-30-2013 at 12:09 AM ---------- Previous post was 12-29-2013 at 11:59 PM ----------

    I had though of just tightening the pinion nut but I have to drive this car 500 miles to deliver it, and then it would be sold if my buddy wanted to do that. I had thought, guessed because I don't really know, that tightening the nut was more of a temporary fix. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

    ---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 AM ----------

    Thanks for the reply. When you say you have spares do you mean manuals, tools, or pumpkins? Thanks

    ---------- Post added at 12:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------

    Thanks for your reply. Hopefully Ted can hook me up and get me on track. I will contact Monzaz also. I appreciate your help.
     
  10. SpecialWagon65

    SpecialWagon65 Ted Nagel

    Hi foofer, I meant pumpkins- the 3rd member 3.08 open (non posi) 65 Buick kind. I just looked at my pile of them, I can ship you one - trade for yours?
     
  11. foofer

    foofer Member

    Thank for replying. I'm going to have to ask my buddy what he wants to do. Because I am now speaking above my area of under standing, could you please explain to me how this will, if at all, effect the performance of this car. Will it be harder to turn, will it be easier to get stuck in snow? I don't even know the questions to ask. What am I loosing, or gaining? This car will not be used as anything except a weekend driver for cruising, but I don't want to install something the will noticably effect steering, noise, tachcomoter accuracy, etc. Could you please just give me a quick summary of what will if anything will be different or change. Thank you for your patience.
     
  12. CameoInvicta

    CameoInvicta Well-Known Member

    From the pics I believe you have a 3.23 gear set.

    With the 3.08 open third member from Ted, basically you will be turning a slightly lower RPM at any given speed. However the gear ratios are so close together, you'd probably never even notice. The big thing you'd be loosing is the posi. With a posi, equal power is sent to both rear wheel. With an open rear end, power is essentially sent to the wheel with the least traction. Unless your friend is racing the car, or wants to ability to do doughnuts :laugh: , an open rear end should be fine. If he does want to retain the posi, a good used posi third member can easily run over $500, whereas an open third member is MUCH less expensive.
     
  13. foofer

    foofer Member

    Thank you for the reply. I will forward him this page, let him read our discussion and let him decide what we will do. I appreciate all of your alls help.
     
  14. foofer

    foofer Member

    I replied to your offer over a week ago. I'm not sure if you didn't get my messages or you decided against my counter offer. Please reply. Thank you.
     

Share This Page