So just let's say in the case of Troy's car as I know this is where he's trying to be as are many others I'm sure, is what you're saying is that you would be looking for the "SW" tag & that there would be a deduction for say an "SJ" tag?
Yes and no. First off Troy should have a “SW” tag on his car. Brett and others have proven that some cars that should have had these radiators from the factory (according to the charts in the assembly manuals) actually came with “SJ” radiators. Now I do not remember if they were all 1970 cars or not, therefore a “SJ” tag might get by the judges. Now “ The Parts Place” reproduces the “SW” tags, but they are made out of regular steel vs the spring steel that the original tags were. This means if you do not solder or otherwise affix them to your radiator, they will fall off. ( Do not ask how I know this.) Also, and this is the big one, I have not judged these cars for years. What you will find judges looking for today…….I cannot tell you……so sorry you can not put me on the spot regarding what others will do. Everything I have posted above is speculation. You/ others need to ask these questions from the guys that are currently judging the cars. Duane
So I did say Troy should have an "SW" tag (the way you worded it made it sound like I hadn't). We do realize that, as much as we'd like to to be, all judges are not equal in their knowledge so I yes, I'm really asking what you would do as being the "gold standard" (no pun intended). I guess in NCRS/Top Flight the judges are more specialized &/or the knowledge base required more universal as they are looking for correctly #'d parts/date codes, etc. It is interesting and maybe a bit confusing that in the case of a radiator you'd be looking for the correct "SW"/"SJ" tag but in the case of say a distributor or carb that the correct #'s don't matter as long as the correctly appearing part is present.
A distributor is a distributor, they all look the same, the same goes for the carbs, regardless of the numbers stamped into them……at least the parts that stick out under the air cleaner look the same for the same year carbs. A “PP” tag certainly looks different from a “SW” tag………you can see the difference, however those tags often are placed over the embossed letters stamped into the tanks. Should we start taking points off cars where we can see the codes are wrong, and not where the codes are covered up? That certainly defeats the purpose of trying to judge the cars all the same on the show field, doesn’t it? Once we forgot to open the trunk of the first car to look at the jack/ spare tire assembly. I had already looked at it earlier, but forgot to do it on the show field, so guess what, none of the cars that year had any of their trunks opened to be fair with everyone. As far as the the NCRS or top flight, they are generally 1000 point judging classes and take quite a while to do each car. They belong to the group of classes that give a car a pedigree. They are basically being judged as if you were purchasing the car. That is not the type of class I put together. It was a class where a guy of somewhat regular means could save up and restore his car to a level of correctness where the vehicle basically looked like it rolled off the dealership floor, and didn’t force him to be a millionaire to do it. I never wanted to take this class to anything beyond that point and still don’t. Duane
I guess that's where I was asking for the clarification - A 3-core radiator, if you're not looking at the tank embossing, is a 3-core radiator. Yes, the tag on a radiator is quite visible that it's physically there but the code(s) on the tag not so much unless you really get down in there & look which is why I asked for clarification of whether you were merely looking for a tag (any tag) to be present vs. the correct/original tag. By "PP" tag are you referring to "Parts Place?" I'm not in disagreement w/you here - Just wanted clarification. Thanks!
No I was not using the “PP” tag in reference to the parts place. There actually was an original “PP” tag used on some radiators and believe it came off a Chevy or a Pontiac. What I was trying to state was I didn’t want to see a non-Buick tag on the radiators. Just like I don’t want to see a “Keep your car all GM” air cleaner sticker with a “PP” code on it. That sticker was used on Pontiac’s, not Buick’s. Also not all 3- core radiators are made the same. The SW rad. has a bigger tank on the passenger side, but I generally never worried about that on the show field. There were other things to consider, especially when you only have 10-15 minutes to look over a car. Duane
Dano, Personally I would really like to see you help judge the cars one year. Maybe just as a helper/observer. I think you would get a different outlook with all of this. It is obvious you are interested in this and you really might like it/be good at it as you obviously have a good eye with seeing differences in parts. It might be something you would like to consider. Duane
Ok - Wasn't sure if you were referring to the repro "Parts Place" tag looking different (it does but...) or an actual "PP" tag and yes, I was being a bit over-generalizing wrt all 3 core radiators being the same but it was just to illustrate the point wrt/vs. dist./carb. As always, thanks for your input here!
One other thing to consider regarding the 70-72 cars. We give no extra points for aligning the driver side door-fender gap at the top. The original sheet metal parts never lined up, so if you take the time/money to “fix” that it’s on you. We will neither add or deduct points for that area if you fix it or leave it alone. Duane
I do take the time. Not sure I couldn’t even if it was a deduction. It looks so good when it's right.
Dano, I showed that to a friend of mine once. We walked down the line of the Concours cars at the 2009 GSX reunion and all the cars but 1 had the gap. We then walked over to the owner and explained that his answer would not affect our judging of his car one way or the other, and I asked him how long it took to fix the gap. He just smiled, as he knew I figured out what he had done, and said it took a while. They cut the fender edge, moved the edge to fix the door gap, then welded it back together. The point I am trying to make here is we give zero points towards making the cars look better then they did when new. Duane
That's what it takes but once you've cut the rest of the welds (on an NOS fender) what's a few more. Same thing on getting the gaps correct around the headlight bezels. Have to cut that bracket off - At least on the NOS fenders & esp. Pass side. Even orig fenders weren't all the same. Had one car that the driver's side just wouldn't line up no matter what. Finally grabbed every used/junk fender we had and the biggest POS of them all fell onto the car like it was made specifically for it. Wound up using the bracing and lower part of the NOS fender & even then still actually had to "lengthen" it at the bottom too to get it to line up correctly. Car had never been in an accident but that body shell must've been whacked when it was put together at the factory. On this one pictured, had to cut off the bracket at the bottom where the fender attaches and shorten it to get the pass side to line up. If I had a pic of the driver's side it lined up perfectly at the door. This stuff always makes me wonder what they did to get them out the door. We know they weren't perfect but there must've been some that were bad.
We had a hell of a time trying to align the front clip on the X-Camino. Finally saw in the assembly manual where Buick started out with a shim under each core support bushing. Once they were in everything lined up perfect. Duane
I can’t imagine a 70-72 Buick judge more “Top Flight” than you, Duane. Thanks for teaching us mere mortals!
