i was reading the article about the stage 3 engine block with 4 bolt mains.the article went on to say that there were stage 3 heads,stage 3 cam,stage 3 pistons(13 to 1 ) and a fabricated intake.has anybody approached Dennis Manner about what the stage 3 program consisted of?or what the plans were ganna be.i understand that it never came to light but,it would be cool to see what was going on inside their heads for the next STAGE.wondering how the stage 3 program differed from the stage 2.does anybody have the cam specs or head specs?
Many posts here in the archieves about the 4 bolt main experimentals. He confirms there was never any stage III --just some experimentals. Like the Stage II all of this was closed down based on the forthcoming lower octane fuel and the need for emissions controls.
ttt ok,so what were the heads and the cam that were in this motor?why was there a fabricated intake.were the heads tall ports that wouldnt fit stock or edelbrock intakes?i understand that it was all experimental but surely theres got to be some more info on this. o No:
dreeesh, I just posted a picture of one of the heads that was used with this particular 4-bolt main block, on another thread. It was a stage 2 tunnel port head and there were no "off the shelf intakes that could be used with it. This particular motor had an aluminum tunnel port intake that we think was fabricated by hand, and not supplied by Buick. The history of all this is being put together as we speak. Dennis Manner will be attending the BPG Nationals in Salem Ohio next week and the block, heads, and intake will also be there. (The heads & intake will be there on saturday.) We are looking forward to Dennis will be giving a talk about these pieces and the Stage 2 program, and we have plans to tape and photograph everything. The hope is to sort through all the information we have collected from everyone, and to write an article outlining the known history of the engine. Duane
I still don't think you get it. There was no Stage 3 program, the R&D pieces we are talking about here (4-bolt main blocks & tunnel port heads) were a continuation of the Stage 2 program, and at this time I have no information about the engine internals that were originally supplied by Buick. Hopefully after Dennis's talk next week we will have more info. If you want to know the particulars of the engine components that were used, why don't you come to Salem next week and ask the gentleman that put them together. Duane
experimental pieces ok so i will refrain from using the term stage 3.the questions i am asking are because of the article written by the previous owner of the 4 bolt main block.he referred to all the pieces as stage 3.why he thought this is anyones guess ,but as the article reads he bought the block from a gentleman who was given r&D pieces from buick to test.so was he mistaken?was the cam in the motor a stage 2 cam and he just didnt know it,or did the guy who sold it to him tell him these were stage3 parts.again i realized there was NO stage3.but had the gas crunch never happened,im sure there might have been a stage3.unfortunatly i cant attend Salem,i would love to ask Dennis Manner what was on the drawing board IF anything.the experimental pieces were obviously an attempt to make the motors more reliable in a performance field.it would have been nice to see a stage 2 motor go heads up with the experimental LS7 motor that chevy put out!!! :TU:
John Fritz is a member of this Board and uses the name I think Stage III. As for what was on the drawing Board the 70 assembly manual has a note or two that references a 500 cid engine. I meant to ask D Manner in Rochester was that an error or a reference to an engine intended to compete with the then Caddy 500 cid claim to be the largest displacment engine.
it would have been nice to see a stage 2 motor go heads up with the experimental LS7 motor that chevy put out!!! :TU:[/QUOTE] This did happen. The LS7 chevelle was called the "Green Machine", and Pop won that match race...
try to get your hands on a may 1970 issue of hot rod magazine, there are 5 experimental buick engines on the cover, including a turbo-charged nailhead motor that made something like 850 fl lbs of torque :eek2: great reading, that might answer some of your ?'s buickbert
dreeesh, The questions you are asking are exactly the type of questions we plan to ask Dennis next week. I have started putting together some info for all of this, but the problem is we seem to have some conflicting information. The gentleman that sold the block to John Fritz told him it was a complete engine when originally delivered from Buick, including the oil, but that may not have been the case. (He also said the same thing to the guy that bought the heads & intake, and in both instances referred to the motor as a Stage 3 motor.)(That's where the Stage 3 name came from.) However, it may have been finished elsewhere (Possibly at the dealership level) and was complete when the driver/mechanic (Guy that Fritz bought it from) first saw it. If you look at the left bottom picture on the cover of the May 1970 issue of Hot Rod magazine it shows a picture of one of these motors, including the intake manifold, and Dennis has verified that the intake on the cover was the one they developed for Buick. Now that intake doesn't look anything like the one from our motor. Plus theirs has a single 4-bbl while ours has 2-4bbls, so again we don't know what was supplied by Buick and what wasn't. Dennis knows how the parts were sent out of the factory, and we know (from John Fritz and others) how it looked when delivered to be installed in the car. All we need to do is fill in the blanks, and that will start next week. You have to remember that the questions about this block/tunnel port engine have been un-answered since the 70's. Plus the info about the top end is only 1- 1 1/2 weeks old, and I only got the pictures of the top end within the last week, so lets give it a little time and see what we come up with. Duane
Duane, your talking about your engine, in the early 80s, I was working for Kenne Bell. There was a " Stage 3" engine built with the tunnel port heads, sheet metal intake, 4 bolt main block, Moldex, crank and Carrillo rods for a street racer in NY. Is this the same engine? I see posts about the tunnel port heads stating that only 2 sets were made. That may have been true when Tony Branson got his, but I know Kenne Bell had 3 pairs. 1 pair went on the engine for the street racer in NY. He ran this engine in a skylark/GS, but he was also well know for racing a Deuce and a Quarter.
Dennis Manner told me only 2 sets of the Stage 2 tunnel port Factory heads were ever built and the 1 set was destroyed in testing. “Our” tunnel port heads were displayed in a picture with Dennis in a 1970 publication. I forget the name of the Magazine. He also said he never made an intake for this configuration. The one that was on our motor was built by Tony Branson. Dennis also stated our heads were sent with the 4-bolt block, light weight valves, and titanium valves, a Stage 2 cam, and a bunch of other parts including a set of original Stage 2 Kustom Headers, to a dealership so Tony Branson could run the motor and give feed back to Denny. At that point, around the first quarter of 1970, all work with the Stage 2 program was dropped. Denny said there was basically no time to do any more work with the Stage 2 project due to the time needed to develop the 71 production engines that were to run on un-leaded fuel. I know nothing about any future Factory involvement with the program, except for the fact that Tony Branson kept refining his engine. I do know he was having oiling problems and developed the first high volume oil pump by having 2 of the gears welded together and adding a “1 gears width thick” spacer put in. This would have been sometime in the late 1970-1971 period. Tony raced Hemi’s in 1972. I also know Tony shared his findings with the west coast racers and this was most likely what led to the Kenny Bell high volume oil pumps we know today. The Stage 3 “name” that has been associated with our engine/heads was never used by Dennis, but that is what a later racer called it when he ran the motor after Tony Branson had it. That was the first time it was called that, and was what it was called when John Fritz picked it up. It was never part of a Factory “Stage 3” program, as there wasn’t one at the time. Denny will be in Bowling Green this year with all kinds of goodies including the 4-bolt motor that he got from us. If you have any questions about work done in the 80’s, and if the Factory was involved in any way, I would advise you to ask him about it. They is no better source then he on this subject. Duane
That is the magazine but that is Denny’s boss. The picture of Denny is in the article and he has his hand on one of our heads. Also, on the cover is an engine with a yellow sheet metal intake. Denny said he didn’t think that motor had a set of tunnel port heads, but remembered them as being Stage 2 heads. And that is a May 1970 issue. Duane
That’s Denny and one of our heads is at the far right. You can see how large the intake holes are compared to a “standard” Stage 2 head. You can also see the tubes in the intake holes where the push rods run through. They were a completely different casting then a Stage 2 head with different water jackets. The order of the heads from left to right; Stage 2 standard head or Stage 2 Tunnel port head (they use the same exhaust holes) Standard 455 or Stage 1 head Standard 455, Stage 1, or Stage 2 head Stage 2 Tunnel port head Also the Stage 2 as well as the Tunnel port heads are the 1970 design, with the tall freeze plugs. The Stage 2 heads they sold over the counter in 1972 were a different casting. Duane
Duane if i'm correct I have read that yellow box intake was made to test and tune intakes for individual "runners"? flow. Oh yes please ask about the potential 500 cu. motor!
As stated above I have given the info that I know about the motor we had. If you want to know more info about the experimental engines I would advise you to go to the GS Nationals this year. Denny Manner, who is a retired Buick Engineer and was involved with many of these projects will be there with our motor and a lot of other goodies. He is the one to answer these questions. Duane
