Front End Rise & Weight Transfer

Discussion in 'The whoa and the sway.' started by Bigpig455, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    Working this season on weight transfer, and specifically to get the front end to come up on the 65 Skylark Gran Sport. I thought I had good rise until I started driving the clapped out 71 clone, now I know better.

    I'm moving this discussion over from the Race BBB section, where Gary Bohanon gave some tips in the last post -

    "1 Will fit 64-72 a-body. 6204 springs are small dia wire and tall free height. Work geat for front lift (except with tight bushings).
    2 Del-a-lum bushings for A-frames will leave them free to move like door hinges but are rock solid and have no lateral play. Last a lifetime if you remember to grease the every 5 years.
    Also, adding low friction ball joints will just about take 100 percent of all the friction out of the front end. Will not harm street handling.
    3 I think the 1964 a-frame with greese fitting is a friction free bushing. Check with one of our resto guys.
    The whole idea is to have the A-frame move up and down freely when disconnected from the ball joints (but no lateral slop at all). Any Squezed bushing such as poly or rubber is going to cause bind, period."

    So my follow up questions are:

    1. Are my 65 "H.D." Upper a-frame bushings (w/ grease fitting) truly friction free?
    2. Will my stock rubber lower bushings (original to car) bind enough to require Del-a-lums?
    3. Where can I find "low friction" ball joints?

    Thanks
     
  2. Da Torquester.

    Da Torquester. Platinum Level Contributor

    Good thread. I'm anxious to see the responses on this as I'm trying to better my sixty foot times. John.
     
  3. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    The car actually hooks pretty well now, I generally run 2.20-2.17 60's, which I didnt think was too bad for a 4000 lb, 3.23 car in 225-14 street radials with MAYBE 250 hp at the wheels?

    I have boxed arms, factory sway and airbags -run 15 lbs in the RT, 5 lbs in the left and 25-27 lbs in the tires.

    I think if I could get better transfer, I could get the 60s down into the low 2.0s - If I launch at anything over 1500 rpm against the converter, it just goes up in smoke, and even on my best launches I'm spinning slightly.
     
  4. Da Torquester.

    Da Torquester. Platinum Level Contributor

    It's automatically assumed that any stout running BBB is going to have a lot of traction problems on the street. However for the strip if haven't done so already, remove the front swaybar. Also some three way adjustable shocks for the front ( like competition engineering ) set on 90/10. Do you have stock upper trailing arms ? Might think about a good aftermarket pair. And if you have the money, you can never go wrong with an H/R partsnstuff bar. Albeit a little spendy though. John B.
     
  5. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    All those are great tips, but the car is basically street driven, and truth is I'll be lucky if I run 14.5 this year - I did consider CE adjustable shocks, but the whole removal and adjustment at the track seems kinda exteme - thinnkng I can get by with the worn our NAPAs for the time being. If I get the front to come up and make progress, then I'll think about keeping it up with shocks.

    I did talk to Tom Telasco today, and he confirmed that the HD upper a-frame bushings are basically friction free. Also found AFCO low friction ball joints for about 40.00 each on Jegs so it seems the biggest bang will probably be the lower joints and springs for the time being. I also put in longer swway bar links that give the bar some travel at full extension, and lubed up the bushings not to bind at the frame. Also need to check whether the bumpers on the control arms are stopping travel...
     
  6. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    How about sticky tires? Mickey Thompson ET Street Drag Radials.
     
  7. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    Good suggestion and probably the most logical, but trying to get as far as I can on the street tires. The ultimate goal is to get this thing in shape to take to Michigan for pure stock. It's kind of a bucket list thing.
     
  8. R4E5G5L

    R4E5G5L Not a Cutlass

    I did all the tricks. No sway bar, 90/10 shocks, removed some weight, (did not do bushings).
    Granted a different vehicle BUT the front end would not budge 'till I went to sticky tires.

    Best of luck!
     
  9. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    I guess it comes down to priorities. If you could improve your situation with street tire traction, would you mind inferior handling. Getting the front end to rise rapidly will have some braking and handling down sides in an emergency situation. Might not bother you in everyday driving, but sh-t happens. If you look at F.A.S.T. racing, those guys are going 9s and 10s on back in the day bias ply tires. Part of the reason is that bias ply tires are easier to modulate than radials. Radial let go suddenly, and you have to get out of it completely. The Bias Ply tires, you can ease up on the gas and regain some bite. I believe that was the gist of what Greg Gessler told me one day. It might be easier to do what you want to do with older style tires. Just thought I would throw that out there.
     
  10. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    I've heard the same thing, and when these tires are beat I'm still considering bias plys from a traction standpoint. But god do I hate them. I drove on them enough when I was a kid to to realize I never want to again!

    I think I can get the best of both worlds - my 71 has regular Skylark springs and still flies right up, but doesnt have any handling deficincies.No plans to remove sway bars or go with specific shock valving yet.
     
  11. Clanceman427

    Clanceman427 Hardtops need not apply

    do you have stock motor mounts? how about some solid motor mounts to help lift the car instead of just the engine...also here's something I've done- loosen the lower a arm mounting nuts and then double- nut them so you don't have bind but have a factor of safety with the double nut. since its a street car you can un-do this quite easily at the track when it's time to drive home. kinda a poor man's poly bushing...but only the price of 2 extra hex nuts


    Kevin
     
  12. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    I'll have to check that out when I do the springs and see how much bind is on the lowers - no one really ever talks about the lowers, most modification seems to be done to the uppers???

    Another thing Tom mentioned is to torque the lower arms as they hang toward the ground , and when when your bring them back into place they'll be pre-loaded as the bushing twists....I'm not sure mine are new enough to do that, but I'll consider it too.
     
  13. Clanceman427

    Clanceman427 Hardtops need not apply

    If the uppers come greased, why would anyone focus on those?? It's the lowers that get squished with a bolt and nut and do not have grease-able anything. I'd focus on those.
     
  14. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    I think in most cars, the uppers are squished.. mine are kinda unique, according to Tom only on 65 Gran Sports and 63-65 rivs (?)

    I forgot to mention, i do have a limit chain in the driver's side of the engine, has maybe 1/8-1/4 inch of slack.. I think it would probably pull the rail under torque. I havent had to buy any motor mounts anyway
     
  15. sailbrd

    sailbrd Well-Known Member

    DO NOT USE SOLID MOTOR MOUNTS ON A BIG BLOCK BUICK! Yes I was shouting. You can break the block. You can use a restraining strap on the drivers side. Don't think it would help much.
     
  16. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    Hard enough to find rubber mounts for these cars, much less custom solid mounts - no danger there. I ran a chain from the drivers mount and welded it to the frame. Motor moves only slightly, and in a car notorious for tearing mounts apart I've never had an issue.
     
  17. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    Lower a-frame:
    You can experiment with lift by losening the bolts a little and do some practice runs. Don't put miles on the loose bolts or you will beat out the frame holes. If the bushings are old, they may be loose even with tight bolts.

    Del-a-lum:
    A permenant fix and a perfect fix for upper and lower a-frames.
    No downsides to handling. Cheap gas shocks will keep good control on the suspension.

    Swaybar:
    No need to remove front bar until the big sticky tires and free moving front suspension fail you. Removing it with tight a-frame bushings did not help my car because the tight bushings would not let the front come up no way!!!

    Tires:
    If your suspension is really loose and you have good front springs, I don't think you'll be able to blow away a good Nitto 275/50r-15 or 275/60r-15. These deep tread drag radials will last longer than MT's, grip in rain, and handle better than any bias tire.
     
  18. Bigpig455

    Bigpig455 Fastest of the slow....

    thanks Gary - I'm hoping to find my lower bushings are loose enough on their own. I'm trying not to get into making alot of changes to the suspension at the track on my back. I drive this car there and back, so the idea is set in once and forget it, and it stays manageable on the street. I dont have enough HP to require the extreme stuff, but loosening the front will definately help my launch...

    I'm told the thick wire OEM Gran Sport springs on the car right now actually hold the car down, but how can that be..if they are so think they dont expand on launch, wouldnt they just pull free of the spring perch?
     
  19. GS Spoken Here

    GS Spoken Here Well-Known Member

    A few years ago I ran my 65 GS hardtop after I made a few mods, recurve the dist, good flowing exhaust, blocked the heat riser in the intake, and removed the stock air cleaner. The tires were 215x70x15 used radial tires. The best 1/8 mile time was 9.61 @73 mph, with a 2.20 60 foot time, not to bad for a stock, old motor GS. Thanks Bill.
     
  20. Gary Bohannon

    Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

    Measure the diameter of your front springs.
    GS coils are thick like .630" dia. and bigger.
    Skylark coils are .630" and smaller.
    The 6204 is .610" dia. and 18.614" free hight.
    The 5230 is same but 18.121" free hight and will sit a little lower.

    Moog .610" dia springs will have your front end dancing for many years of fun.
    Moroso racing springs will fall down within a year or two.
     

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