I cannot sit here any longer without throwing this out for discussion. I have been racing in this group for only 5 years and have watched this group of racing change over the years, the times continue to drop by a select group of racers at every race. I understand all about good air and track conditions, bad tracks and bad air. I have learned from my own car that it takes a lot to effect et's.I get that it is a lot easier to go from the 13's to the 12's than it is from the 12's to the 11's, but this is out of hand!!! What is going on with the top of the heap cars? How can some cars gain 6-8 tenths from one race to another. my original concern of the 11.50 numbers has been blown out of the water in the last two races. Why have the tracks not shut down the cars when they hit the 11.50 mark without the proper safety equipment? Who is going to step up and put an end to the streaching of the rules, to down right blatant cheating. The tech has become a joke, a select few know this and have now grown big balls and are slapping it in the racers and spectators faces with down right illegal antics. Below is a list of what I am have been hearing or seeing since racing in this group: Electric fuel pumps Fuel regulators before the mechanical pump No air cleaners No air filters 5/7 cam swaps Switch pitch transmissions Loose convertors 4 speed automatic transmissions Digital boxes Mystery wires in the engine compartments Eccesive lift front ends Shaved tires Wrong size tires Gutted dash's Turn signals Excessive spring pressures Illegal light weight internals ceramic /shimmed lifters exceesive dome pistons A select few are turning this fun race into a run what ya brung under the pure stock/factory stock disguise. I know a lot of you are thinking this, I am putting it out in the open, has pure stock become F.A.S.T?????
Glad to see some people speaking up. I was trying to sit back and wait and see if they would deal with the crap. It's gotten out of hand. Didn't want to be the one Starting the controversy and look like a DiKK before the christmas party, I usually do a good enough job on my own.:laugh:
I would have no problem with the cars that run well into the elevens being told to stay home .Or create a new class top eliminator stock or something else.Its getting out of hand and a LOT of guys have a big problem with it.Let the big ego big money racers do something else your not fooling anyone. I had guys tell me they have $35 k in their engine that is 7 times more than I have in mine.I dont have $700 in my trans and convertor.My posi is a NOS 31 spline Ford with stock 4.11 gears .Sure being fastest would be nice but at what cost to the events .Tear them down if they run to fast ,trans taken out and inspected.Rear checked.Its not fair to the guys running within the spirit of the events to allow a few ego driven trouble makers to lesson their hard fought acheivements.o No:
O.K. - I'll bite. I had my friend (the one who owned my 68' Hurst from 2003 to last June) point out that when I first ran in 1996 I was in the top 5 or 10 - granted only 21 cars showed. I was able to run 13.70s or 13.80s on old 245/60r14s - a very "short" tire in diameter. Now I'm way down (one reason why he never wanted to run) in the field, but of course I'm still re-sorting out the car. Back in 96' and 97' I'll admit to this - I had airbags in the rear springs. They're still there, but all chewed up and are not functional. I used these as the rear springs are original - the car bottoms out badly over things such as railroad crossings. (Yes, I street drive my Hurst - even 5 miles to work.) So I did have some "help" at launch - but I wasn't even in the low 13s. My goal now is just to try to get the thing back to where I had it, and push toward the low 13s. The engine is std bore and possibly still has the original rings. I'd like to address what was posted by Morgan line by line in my own case: Electric fuel pumps - don't have one. I wonder if I have proper fuel pressure from the mechanical unit! Fuel regulators before the mechanical pump - no reguator No air cleaners - I always run an air cleaner No air filters - I run an A/C air filter 5/7 cam swaps - I don't know what this means but I don't think the cam has ever been out of the engine Switch pitch transmissions - such was not available in 68 so that's a no-no Loose convertors - I don't even have a 2025 RPM stall - more like a stock 1800 stall 4 speed automatic transmissions - guys have done this? A THM200R4 would bolt right up, 2.74 first gear, .67 overdrive - BMWs down the interstate look out! I cannot believe anyone has run these - but I haven't checked. Digital boxes - digital what? I have a Pertronix ignition and coil, but the only thing I have in the car that is digital is my mobile phone! Mystery wires in the engine compartments - I had one - it was a broken spark plug wire - it was a mystery to me until I found it! Eccesive lift front ends - this is a look I love, but my suspension was rebuilt in about 1996 - all stock; try loosening the control arm pivot bolts but be sure to re-torque them before hitting the street. (I haven't done this myself yet.) Are greaseable urethane bushings allowed? If so that probably contributes to this look. Shaved tires - what about WARN tires; this is a matter of interpretation Wrong size tires - I run G70x14s, Goodyears from Kelsey Tire -the exact OEM tire used on 68 Hursts; I figure tire size should be pretty easy to police, so what gives here? Gutted dash's - I have some of that fabric insulation that has disintegrated from under my dash, it pratically turned to powder. Does that count? I even made sure my air door works and my heater core is functional. Turn signals - what the heck does the lack of those save? My car has all of the street equipment except one of the horns. Wipers work and wiper pump is present but not hooked up. Excessive spring pressures - nope - stock replacements from Lunati - the specs seemed to have changed from what their web site shows - #73126, 1.8" height, 125 lbs, 256 lbs at 1.25", single spring - all according to the sheet that came with the box of springs. If someone wants to beat the Hell out of their cam lobes, be my guest! Illegal light weight internals - my T400 is redone but with heavy duty internals - I need the trans to last; my shifting is damn firm - is that O.K.? ceramic /shimmed lifters - does this sort of turn your hydraulic lifters into solid units? My lifters are stock and possibly original exceesive dome pistons - I run the original pistons - std bore. I'll end by stating that if guys want to run these times I'm not "offended". My goal is to see how good I can get my car to run as STOCK as possible - I just hope that others will do the same. But if not, to use 60s terms - if people want to jive others and run 11s that's their business. You dig?
I've been racing in this series for about 10-12 years. There are definitely, and always have been, two groups of racers. I think everyone pushes the rules a bit. The bottomless checkbook guys push it to the ego extreme. It's never been about what the rules say...it's about what the rules don't say. The top 10 cars can't be having that much fun knowing that there pairing partner is running .5 sec or faster than them. I'll stick with my group, close pairings and every race is just that...a real race right to the finish line.
Each year I make copies of the flyers that participants get in mail. These are handed out at local cruise nights and part stores or wherever the conversation of muscle cars comes up This is done in hopes of increasing the #of cars as well as spectators at our events. It's become more difficult to convince some car owners when they hear some of these numbers. When you mention this is a pure stock race they roll their eyes,chuckle and walk away. Don't have an answer but thats my experience. o No: Mike Hurd
I hate the broad brush approach some are taking when speaking of the group that is running up front. Often it has nothing to do with ego or cash spent, of course OFTEN it does. I have intentionally stayed far away from this forum for a long while. It did nothing but add stress and no joy but this one is stricking at my very soul. In simple terms I am siding with Jeff Morgan and Tim Clary on this one. I have not brought one of my personal cars around for two years simply because I had little motivation to bring a correct car to the race and simply finding myself being kicked around by cars that may not be all that Pure [sic] Stock. Mostly I have just taken up seat space in other cars. It has been fun but maybe the race was lossing something for me. I was expressing to Dan before this thread started that the joy seems to be gone. Even Dan's fantastic job of rebuilding the Judge's wounded motor and favorable dyno session did not motivate me to bring it out to the final old rules PS race. What for. Sure it would have likely set a new personal best but my sullen mood overcame any desire to see if it was actually quicker. One caveat I would like to throw out. Corvette's are fast, really fast. I can only speak to two of them but after driving one two falls ago it is amazing and they have not even scratched the surface of what is possible while ABSOLUTELY FOLLOWING THE RULES. Larry's LS6 I drove last year is a tremendous example. Born with spings, shocks, bushings in the suspension. They work great and only have 13K orignianl miles on them. I had passes during test and tune well into the 1.7x range. The motor has a Crane replacement cam and for some reason no cylinder pressure. It ran easily in the 11's and if its worrisome motor was fixed it has more in it. It is heavy, heavier then most of the F bodies running quickly. Heavier then all the fast Corvettes. Likely becuase each item it left the factory with are still there. Larry's Gold L88 he took over from Jim Mattison is another example of why Vettes are fast and not even sorted yet. His again is very heavy. Per Dan's weights it was the heaviest of all the quick ones this fall. It pressed the scales more than many steel body cars. Maybe it is becuase it actually has correct for L88's J56 brakes that are very heavy in comparison to standard Vette brakes, maybe it is the fact that the heater works, the headlight bulbs are there and work, the radio is there and works, the power windows are darn nice I must say but not light. NOS L88 Koni shocks are kind of cool also. Those are the things that make the car honest for a PS car. The motor is coming out this fall for service and we have invited Dan, Bob and Dave Dudek is also welcome to see it disassembled. We are proud of the correct NHRA stamped over the counter pistons, the NHRA rods, factory crank, and Crane replacement L88 cam. Back to my point that Vettes are fast and really should not be neccessarily lumped in with some other cars vying for the top ET. Larry's car is short over a point of compression even by the new 2011 rules. Add in that the car has all its options and a few most would consider crazy on a PS car like power windows. The car ran 11.3x in Virginia a couple years ago and finally backed that number up at Fall Martin with a much lighter driver then Larry. This is a heavy (for a Vette) car with a lot of room under the hood to make more power do to much lower compression than allowed. That car could go much faster. I think we need to be careful about claiming everyone up front is out of bounds or driven by nefarious goals. I personally know that is not my brother. Even when we grew up he was never even a very competitively minded guy. He is tight with his spending on that car as his nature leads him to be. Heck half the time he does not even take the spare tire out as he really does not mind if the ET is this way or that due to the extra weight. I take it out when I remember for him. Larry is like most of us he owns a cool car and wants to have fun. So why are so many of us not having fun anymore? We all know the answer. I have no issues with and even understand why people like to race modified cars. If you are one of those people I would emplore you to take your cars to the venue they belong in. And there is the perfect venue just for you. It is called FAST. Jeff and Tim I am backing your play. BTW Tim you did not remotely look like a "dikk". And until you two can help bring some sanity to this issue along with Dan, Bob, Dave and Terry. And I know they really are trying to create an excellent solution. I also think they will. But until then I likely will keep my cars nestled warm and snug in the garage. I will fill a seat in a car when asked and tune for freinds when no seat is open. I also will not get upset when a Vette does crush me or any other honest car. Thank you to all who are trying to reign in the rule bending. Lets just not torch any villagers until they are proven worthy of said torching. Mark
Unfortunatly I think certain racers have gotten away from the heart and soul of what this race is about, Read someone mentioning tech, yeah its pretty bad when some cars a scrutinized and other never lift the hood. I have been brought up around racing and drag strips so I got a pretty good idea what a race car sounds like. There are more than 1 or 2 cars out there that sound like my Dads SS/AH hemi Barracuda through mufflers, and they are very very obvious witch one's they are. Especially when you have other identicle power train cars out there that are mor than 3 - 4 tenth faster.
I agree with the loss of interest in this racing. I broke my motor at Stanton this year, I broke the crankshaft in half not to good. I spent the whole summer before that under the car with many other problems. But not being a rich guy it's become quite a financial burden. But the biggest reason I don't really have much interest in racing is because Im not even competitive anymore. When I first started this 8 years ago I was so enlited to run high 12's I almost pissed myself. Now Im not even close to being fast Im actually very average and the car itself doesnt have the same appeal to me as it did at onetime. I used to think a 12.67 my personal best was good with a 4 speed but hell that sounds slow to me now. It seems a few people either really got there stuff to run or they just really cheated alot and that's not cool. I will fix my car when time and money pervail but I do not have the desire that I did at one time and that really sucks.
Here is what I suggest people do to get back to having "FUN"! 1)Put your car on a trailer 2 days before the event. 2)Pack some burger,brats,hot dogs,grill,charcoal,lighter fluid, a lighter,some tools(in case of emergency), cooler(with beverage of choice on ice), pack all this stuff into your tow vehicle with either family members or close friends,and head to the host hotel the day prior to Friday T & T. 3)Upon arrival at Hotel, park tow rig, then get out and mingle with the greatest car people on Earth,bench race,grill-out,drink,eat,and be merry. 4)T & T day at track, repeat step 3 while making a few passes in your car between meals,stories,mingling,etc. HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART----Leave the damn car alone,just let the stupid thing run whatever it runs and I guarantee you will have more fun if you don't chase your tail wrenching on a stupid car for another hundredth 5) REPEAT STEP 3 6) REPEAT STEP 4 7)Have fun enjoying yourself,family,old friends,and new friends you met doing STEP 3:beer I started attending 12 years ago,and started participating 9 years ago. Prior to finding this event, I had wasted my life looking through a brown Beer bottle,and nothing else. These races gave me focus,balance,and a purpose. It gave me a chance to build some great cars with my Dad, making up for many years I wasted in a dark, dim lit Bar room. I love this Event, and this type of racing. I enjoy myself at EVERY event. A few weeks ago I had a BLAST watching my wife run the 5hit out of a BONE-STOCK,PURE STOCK,VIRGIN STOCK 72 Stage 1. We worked on the car,and her driving technique, and it was a thrill to watch her go quicker with every pass as she figured the car out. She ran a 13.92@97mph which is over a full second quicker than a 72 Stage 1 HOT ROD Mag tested in 1972. People need to stop worrying about what other people may,or may not be doing. Just go with the mindframe that your going to spend a few days with some great looking/running cars, and a few days with wonderful friends, doing something we all Love, all through closed exhaust on street tires. I'm grateful for these events. Without these events life would be pretty dull,and I would have to sit for HOURS in the staging lanes on Bracket Race Day, one of the slowest cars mixed in with a bunch of obnoxious open headers,motorcycles,snow mobiles,weed whips,Jr. Dragsters,etc. Quit Bitching and have fun while it last's. I'm done:Smarty:
Nice Skittles pic............ I've said before some of the best times I've had with the cars is as the pit bi_ch Now remember if you need car money tell Danielle it's for her car. Works everytime
Perfect! Thanks Tom, years of racing and every place I go are great people! Just getting into F/S. 2 years now. (I dont even take the race car out? Too slow for FAST) The point is politics suck (SCCA Regional director?) Been there done that. It is all about the people and FUN! :3gears:
We're gonna be wanting to see his birth certificate if he runs for president..... :bla: but I'd probably vote for him. :beers2:
