Gary's last post was #366 as far as I can tell so the rest of us have been doing a great job carrying on so let's continue. Gary is still looking at stock Iron heads, iron crank and iron block but has not commented yet on the use of a girdle. There is the possibility of using the 494 stroker combination. With that would be connecting rods with 2.00" rod journals that are somewhere over 7.00" long so the piston can have a short CD for a light weight billet design. We have suggested aluminum rods but Gary hasn't commented on that yet. The 750 hp engine is with modified stock iron heads. Gary talked about a high port aluminum head closely designed to the SB2.2 for a 1000+ hp engine. I'm going to add here that the large roller cam needed to get this job done will also require a lifter bore girdle. I would fill the lifter gallery in between the lifter girdles. Please comment the heck out of this. Paul
How high of a lift would a lifter bore girdle be required? And can cast iron heads be ported good enough to flow in the lifter bore girdle lift requirement range? Derek
Great question! The problem goes back to the block. The cam bore is small and only allows so much lobe lift. The TA block has cam bores for 54 mm cam journals so the larger cams are available. With the stock small cam bores and low lift cam lobes you are forced to use higher ratio rockers which increase the stress on the lifters and lifter bores. I haven't done it but it would be interesting to see if there is enough material to bore cam bores for the larger bearing. The stock head (I don't like to use the word can't) is not likely able to be ported to use a very high valve lift but a modified stock head can. Paul
Hey, I am building a 750 HP iron head motor right now.. 'Course it has a Hampton 8-71 GMC on it.. :eek2: ---------- Naturally aspirated... no girdle... uzzled: More power to ya' make sure you take pictures of the carnage. :Brow: JW
Girdles? Women still wear those? 750 w/o a girdle or Hardblock? I see a grenade it the sometime future. One chance on the dyno.
Regarding the 5.4 rods... It might have been overlooked in the vast text, but yes PM rods wouldn't be suitable for the power level. I assumed the 5.4 was brought up for it's availability in aftermarket choices. There are also BBC alum. rods from 6.5 to 7.+ in many increments in between, that can come with a 2.000 journal. Sorry about the misleading order of quotes. The intensity of the lobe in "lift per degree" would be more of a factor than the actual lift. Is the question is asking, "what range of cams, as described by their lift range, requires lifter bore support? At what point do you need this on a Buick 455?o No: Not intentionally being nit-picky, but there's a lot of lobe choices. Haven't bored a cam tunnel yet on a 455... With a limited head, you can still hold the valve open past peak airflow. Some cylinder filling via the extra degrees of rotation. Might as well over cam it if the goal doesn't include idling at a reasonable speed or having a streetable powerband. This ties in to the comments on 14-1 compression and the rpm required to make the goal. Ready for boost yet? [Left this on screen for a while before sending, some is covered already]
Jim Thanks for the sneak preview. That's what I call the nearly the perfect street engine. Gobs of torque everywhere. Will you be posting the complete engine build including dyno results? Paul
I posted some addition info in post#401 An aggressive lobe profile problem is compounded by the cam bore restriction where higher rocker ratios are needed to get higher valve lifts. This increases the force on the lifter which in turn increases the lifter bore side load. Paul
With my short term memory (at least that's what I tell my wife) I'm surprised i remembered the post myself. You're right I did not cover the airflow part of the question directly but I eluded to a solution in the last sentence.
Ok, gentlemen , its like this! The block WILL BE HARD FILLED AND A FULL MAIN, BLOCK GIRDLE. Now on the cam design, has anyone heard of billet small base circle? This allows higher lifts and yes I plan on changing rocker ratio. Duration in a cam does a lot too folks! Remember I'm dealing with three different cam companies to get my best option , so far LSM SYSTEMS ENGINEERING is my best option. They have done more streetable 1000+ hp engines then anyone I know of! Besides that they do all in house custom machining ... yes,I plan on really missing up a good set of heads to make more potential power then anyone can think. I have been consulted by some damn good people in here. Now for the pistons, just think of it this away, Mike Moran has his billet pistons made for him and they make beyond 3000 hp and some low as 500 hp and yes, it can be driven on the road! Mike and I have talked on my build and he thinks its very well possible with the knowledge available! I still want to use used parts if possible! Just think about this guys, the 528 Kenne-Bell did made how much power? and it had iron heads too. Oh ya it was street driven too I think sometimes you guys think to hard on things like this. I have done several engines in my life that shouldn't make the power it did but it did Its how you were taught and if you put that knowledge to use and oh I have several times on several different makes of engines, just beware, just beware now on the sb 2.2 design, the man that can make any cylinder head design in the world to bolt to any engine isTom Hempill of Tom Hempill Racing Engines. He does billet heads in wet jack or not! I have called him once on having a set of billet heads done for a possible 528 . Tom said he could have the heads flow more then anything Buick aftermarket has ever saw and still not require trick valvetrain! He even does intakes. Has he done any buicks in the past? That is a simple yes and three people told me about him , Brodix, Greg Gessler, and Dart. I think they would know if he has or not to recommend him... I do believe I can make up to 750 hp on the cubic inch I'm going with and have room to play still, if I recall correctly there was a fella on here that made 1500 hp on a stock BLOCK, will I choose to go that far? Your all nuts. I think about 850 is really pushing the envelope on my project. Now, if know one helps besides word of mouth, this engine will have the pin pulled after six runs down the track! What I mean by that is this, either a junkyard turbo or turbos will be used. or a whole lot of nitrous If I go nitrous, I'll be spraying. in 50 hp increments untill she scatters
Now back to regular programming , There has been several people on here, have been asking this question , " What is the Intake runner C.C. port size on a big block Buick cylinder heads?". I as one of them included. I have not got a definite answer yet! I know there is casting numbers on every bbb cyl. head, except the experimental ones. Here is my question on that now, Did Buick use the same port mold but, reconfigured the outside molding? Some heads are different on appearance and casting thickness ! By studying other types of cylinder heads ( Types C, F, P, and D.) If there is a 5 cc to 10 cc difference in any cylinder head, that means the port runners are different! Different ort moldings! If this is the case, I want to document it and cut up different casting number heads to show the difference's. I do have access to a metal band saw! Sincere Gary M.
I would like to know if anyone has every documented a wet-flow of stock iron heads to all out hogged out TA cylinder heads? I have heard from 85d that flow balls and flow wands show where the air is slow or fast but those don't do anything in the combustion chamber area! This is where wet-flow shines and shows if you designed a good port, good short side, good valve face angles, proper valve size, proper port size, good valve angle, proper port runner height, and where it all should begin the proper combustion chamber shape ! I have learned if you have everything good but the combustion chamber, your world is in a heep of trouble. Just by having a bad combustion chamber your timing will be just as normal (Buick aftermarket heads) power potential won't be no where near as exspected! Poor flame travel, having to many vortexes, and so on. Every cylinder head developer and any serious cyl. head porter that I have talked to recommend me having any head wet-flowed and flowed to see where you need to improve. Wet-flow will not tell you which way to go but its a starting point to begin! Manipulating a port is not the only way to imrove on a cylinder head, there is several other factors too. When going back through Harld Bettes Engine Airflow book, there is a article showing a guy cast iron welding a oldsmobile cylinder and one area he greatly improved on was the combustion chamber and gained most of his power by reshaping it. So has anyone done any great improvements on the stock cast iron combustion chambers? Sincere. Gary M.
I'm sorry you guys think we are in a different relym! I personally don't care about what you have say unless its about this thread . I commented back on the pistons part and you two seem you guys know more then a WORLD RECORD DOOR SLAMMER HAS! Personally Mike is a very talented man and knows a ton more then any single person in here. Billet pistons he runs with hold thousands of foot pounds of torque not hundreds! I believe he knows whats best for a build like mine! Matter of fact, I already spoken to three people or should I say three companies that has already proven that. you can make 750 hp with my selected parts I'm sorry you don't have the knowledge to do it but, don't come on my thread and talk crap, especially when I have done several other engines in that neighborhood with ease. Like I said before and I say it again , do your homework first then build, its a ton cheaper that away Gary M.
Glad to read you're going with the jock strap, the dyno shop you take it to will appreciate not having a dynobomb in their shop, who would clean that mess up in there and heaven forbid that someone would of got hurt or worse. Now when its in the car, who is going to volunteer to drive a tune bomb? And who's car will it be in to explode, because it will need to be in a car that's certified to run whatever power all the nitrous or boost will give it? And what track are you going to do that too? You going to pay to clean the track? You probably should rent a track to do that so you don't disrupt people that are trying to race. Nothing worse than paying to race or test and tune and have to wait for the track to be cleaned from some jackass that blew up their junk! A kind of selfish thing to do don't you think? A better thing to do with the engine once its in a car would be to campaign it to every race from coast to coast to see how many races it can win in as many race seasons it will run without "trying" to make it explode in the N/A form it was built to run. How would anyone know the engine was worth a crap if you build and then blow it up on purpose? Derek
Gary, I don't recall the CC numbers, but some 67 430 castings are about 5% bigger that the later castings. Yes, they have some cracking issues, but I have a set that went 305@.500 on the intake, and lived thru several seasons with 700 lbs valve springs. Finding good castings will be the challenge, but I would start there. As much as your going to have to hog out the ports, any iron head is going to be fragile. BTW.. that motor with those heads, made 680 HP.. it was just your basic boilerplate drag race motor.. 13-1 494 Steel 7.1" rods, 550ish G pistons girdled and filled with a 268* solid roller. That same shortblock when thru many upper half changes, finally settling in on fully ported STG 2 TE castings, and twin dommies on a tunnel ram. That motor made 870 HP and put a 3100 lbs GS in the 8's at 150 mph. It lived in all those forms for 2 decades, and made hundreds of passes down the track. An external wet sump oil pump is absolutely mandatory. Iron motors require 100psi+ at rpm, or you will have a hard time keeping a rod bearing in it. Of note to you... when we went to the TE heads, with a 270* solid roller, it made 745 HP. Your not going to get that airflow out of iron heads, so you have to sneak in the back way, with a lot of camshaft, and the matching compression ratio. Fill the block completely, and start at a 4.375 Bore. A few serious Iron motors have when as far as 4.390. Good luck. JW
We're on the same page. I think my diatribe came about because Gary made some comments about how "bad" the Buick design was (is). In Buick's defense, I think the design, marketing and manufacturing was excellent for their customer. Thankfully there were some gearheads employed that wanted more; otherwise the Stage 2 package in the late 1960's would not have happened, and the Stage 2 heads that followed wouldn't have, either. Devon
