Would I lose points for having an aftermarket POA valve for the 134a conversion to the cycling-clutch system? It is a direct replacement for the factory valve but differs in appearance a bit. Thanks. Bill
Why not just keep your original? There are companies out there that can recalibrate for 134. I used my original with 134 with no problems.
I'm not sure it's any good anymore. The car sat for many years before I started to restore it and the a/c didn't work at that time. The POA valve looks ugly, too, and I am restoring the car for show, possibly concours class, but I want everything to work good as well. A replacement original POA valve is way more expensive than the replacement. Do you know of anyone who restores these valves to look and work like new? That would be a great help. Thanks. Bill
Any clean used POA should work OK. As long as it came from a sealed system and is not rusty inside it should work fine. Most older GM cars all used the same exact POA and expansion valve. The part that could go bad is the expansion valve, because the capillary tube is filled carbon dioxide gas and it can leak out. I still have a 40 year old expansion valve on mine and it works great. Remember, 40 years ago things were made to last. The replacement parts are not as good. You can have your drier rebuilt, those can NEVER be used over. I heard stories of baking them in a warm oven to dry them out. I tried using one over once and the dessicant bag inside the thing burst and the fine powder plugged up the screen in the expansion valve. Had to flush the whole system after that. ou: The key is to get parts from a system that has not been open to the atmosphere, usually the residual oil in the system keeps things from corroding as long as the system has not been opened. Maybe you could find a nice used POA? Problem is that unless you can do this work yourself, it would be a tough sell to get a professional to install used parts. ou: I'd bet you could maybe get a reasonable guy to try it with a good used POA though if he is a car guy.
Ditto what he said ^^ Especially about the drier. It's a wear item, and it ain't pretty when one blows open in your system. Those POA valves are pretty durable, so good ones aren't hard to find. They're often available NOS, but can be pricy. I can't post links here yet, but if you go to the Arizona Mobile Air website, then to the AC Forum, then to the FAQ section, there is an article on how to make a test rig to test a POA valve. There is also info on how to calibrate it for R134a. Those POA eliminators are, IMHO, actually a downgrade from the POA/TXV systems on GM cars. I've removed them and reinstalled the POA valves form a number of systems when the customer was dissatisfied with the performance. The clutch on an A6 compressor wasn't designed to cycle. I can't say for certain, but I've seen some failures that I highly suspect were due to cycling with the POA eliminator.o No: The cycling of that big A6 is pretty noticeable too. Just food for thought: In the past 2 years, the price of R12 has dropped considerably, making R134 (or other) conversion less of a financial necessity. If the system is sealed properly when rebuilt, it will not need serviced again for a number of years. The initial price of the refrigerant is less of a consideration when factored over the life of the system. It's higher right now because it's AC season, but was readily available for $10/lb in #30 cylinders this past spring. Look for the price to drop even lower this winter.
I LOVE IT!! A GUY WHO SEES THINGS THE WAY I DO!!! ALL THIS GUY NEEDS TO LEARN NOW IS HOW GOOD DURACOOL REALLY IS!!!! :Brow:
From what I can tell, we see eye to eye on almost everything except Duracool...........and us AC pros wanting to intimidate DIYers. :Brow: Oh, and on the DuPont refrigerant patent thing. How can a smart guy like you fall for that nonsense? ou: Al Gore and Friends didn't just invent the Internet and Global warming ya know. Seriously, though, you can't beat a GM A6 compressor pumping R12 through a TXV and a POA valve for chill factor. Even Ford went to that system in the 70s, before cycling clutch systems appeared. Sweet Riv nailheadina67, BTW. Regards, Tom
Thanks, Tom! As a professional with a "card".......I don't expect you to go against what the EPA says you have to do. I'm certain you must follow the rules or else. I can understand that, and perhaps it's the EPA who's really the intimidator here where Duracool is concerned, not the shops. Here you have a gas that much more closely matches the characteristics of the R-12 it replaces, mixes with ALL types of oils (btw as I'm sure you know a-6 GM compressors were designed to be used with mineral oil, not pag or ester oil), it can be flushed with mineral spirits that is still relatively cheap, (what's 134 flush cost lately?....I know it's way more expensive), it does not become hydrocloric acid when mixed with moisture as 134 and r12 does. It doesn't need ANY......I'll repeat ANY...... additives in order to work. 134 needs a witches brew of all kinds of BS and still doesn't come close to the performance of Duracool. It will even work if it's mixed with 134 or r12.....oh, but that's illegal. ou: Had the EPA not mandated recycling of old refrigerants this would not even be an issue. All this as other greenhouse gas pollution continues un-checked all over the world. Does Dupont care about that? What a commercialized pile of crap......have you walked down the isle of your local auto parts store lately? It's 134 and all it's additives that are keeping these guys in business. Nobody wants us to know the truth of how good the better product really is. Same goes for the a/c repair shops. You can justify the higher cost of a job that requires flushing, installation of special rubber parts, special oil, special parts, and recalibration of the system to a specification it was not designed for. All this adds up to quite a large repair bill I think we all agree. :dollar: Now compare that to a simple evac and recharge with a gas that just drops in. How much can you charge for that? Maybe 50 or 60 bucks? I think the choice for people who have to earn a living is obvious. And since big business is in the pocket of the EPA, and our entire federal gov't for that matter, as usual the consumer is mis-informed and left paying the higher price. It's just as simple as that. I respect your opinion Tom, I really do, but I've had this same arguement so many times before.......... And if I were in the a/c repair biz, I doubt I'd be selling Duracool either.............it's just a matter of $$$$.
I won't argue the merits of R12/r134a/ or Duracool. It's been done to death. Often, all it does is make enemies, and that doesn't do anyone any good. I won't change your mind, nor will you change mine at the moment. (If I jab at you occasionally, it's all in fun to make light of our difference of opinion. Like your comment in an earlier post). But, I would like to correct a couple of your comments about R134a just so others who like to argue minutiae won't try to beat you down with them and say "See, he was wrong about this, so he must be totally wrong about everything else". -There are no additives needed or recommended for any system running R134a. Anyone who is familiar with proper AC service procedures won't touch that crap with a 10 foot pole. All of that stuff on the rack at the parts store is either garbage or snake oil that the manufacturers of those products want you to believe you need. Like other "mechanic in a can' additives, they're useless and can cause damage. -There are no "special" seals needed for R134a systems per se. Seal compatability was thought to be an issue in the beginning but it was found that the old seals were perfectly compatable in service. This concern, along with the push for "tighter" systems led to the development of the better seal materials used today. HBNR seals are the standard today for line connections. Neoprene is still used for shaft seals almost universally. - It's hydrofluoric acid. :laugh: -Although there are pricy "flush solvents" out there (Dura-141 is $40/quart:shock Most people use mineral spirits or lacquer thinner for flushing (with proper disposal, of course). - Flushing is considered good practice any time the oil level or the internal system condition is unknown. This is true regardless of refrigerant or who is performing the repair. Even though we disagree on the R134/Duracool issue, we are pretty much in agreement on everything else. Lets work together, help some folks and have some fun. A guy that drives a nice old Riv can't be all bad.p
Sounds OK to me.....I've been sick and tired of arguing over this issue for over 5 years. But I dislike it very much the way the industry as a whole seems to ostracize people who try to promote Duracool. Really ticks my off. My opinion will always be that R-12 systems were designed to be lubricated with mineral oil, and R-134 is not compatible with mineral oil. It may shorten compressor life, maybe not. I'll never put anything but mineral oil in my system. I don't think I have enough time to handle everybody's questions here all by myself, and bickering over things certainly won't help anybody. All of us working together here sure sounds like a plan to me.
Back to Original question. Old Air products in Florida and maybe the Parts Guy rebbuild and Replate the POA valves.
Old Air Products, at least the only one I know of, is in Ft. Worth, TX. Is there another one? They sell original POA valves but they are $625. Ouch. Bill
They're in Texas unless they moved. About 5 years ago they custom made an a/c muffler for me out of aluminum. It fit really well, but it had a slow leak and I had to have one of the fittings on it cut off and re- heli-arc'ed. (now there's a good word for a spelling bee ) I never bothered returning it, that was cheaper than shipping it back and screwing around. P'd me off though.....I lost all my refrigerant because of that. :af: I'm sure that doesn't happen often, it was just my bad luck. ou:
The answer to your original question is yes, points will be deducted if not an original type poa. Mark
Classic Auto Air will test, replate, rebuild, and recalibrate POA valves. The cost for a complete rebuild, replate, and recalibrate for 134a is about $150. Same cost if you want to stick with R12. If your valve is still serviceable, testing and plating run about $80.
I realize that ths is an older thread. From a judging standpoint, we were instructed in the judging clinics at the BCA shows, the car is to look as it would have when new being presented to the first owner by the dealer. Sooooo, keep that in the back of your mind when your are doing a restoration. If you have the opportunity to be a judge , I think it is well worth the time. It's quite an education. Don't misunderstand me, I like a modified car just as well as the next guy. Loren
Loren, Old thread or not, that is some good info! Thanks! It's often hard to know what judges look for in a "correct" car. The basics are easy, but it's the minutae that makes it difficult. It seems that everybody has different ideas. The "Big Guys" are well documented right down to overspray and paint spatter, but less "popular" brands are left to interpretation. Your post helps narrow that down a bit. Thanks Loren. It sounds like a non-original type POA will deduct points. Like was stated, good used originals aren't too hard to find and they can be reconditioned\restored if necessary. Non OEM pieces are functionally equivalent, but look different.
