Motors three, which should it be...364,401 or 425?

Discussion in ''Da Nailhead' started by 18CEOD, Apr 13, 2020.

  1. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    So I have a dilemma and Im writing here for advice. I haven't posted much due to not being ready with projects or having a load of experience with the nailheads but I read a lot and Im getting ready to start some stuff.
    Over the last year and a half or so I've been collecting motors and parts for some projects I have. I have a 53 Super and a 63 chevy C10 that I want to build. The 53 started out with the idea of putting a big block nailhead in to replace the 322 with a theme and the truck I wanted to remove the inline six and put a nailhead in.
    Soooo, I spent the last year and half searching for nails. My journey has landed me here. In my possession I currently have a 1965 425, a 1962 401, and two 1959-1961 364s. Haven't nailed down an exact date on them yet.
    The 425 was my first find. I was excited to find an LX code with the good parts still on it and it still rotated. It came with a 1965 ST400, but I don't think it was part of the original drive train. The second find was a 401 and a 364 both with their transmissions still attached. The 401 had a Dynaflow open drive shaft and surprisingly the 364 had a 1964 coded ST400 attached. They were both locked up. The last 364 was just a block with heads, pistons and a crank. The guy told me his son got it from an airport and it was used as an aircraft tug. All of these I had to travel hundreds of miles to get. I live in Montana and even close things are a minimum of three hours away it seems.
    Sounds great right? Well I broke open the 425 last week and found it was already bored to .030. Pistons said so. The heads look good but there appears to be a frozen valve in the number 7 hole. Crank is toast. The carbs don't look good either. Took it to the machinist and he mic'd it and said it would have to go to .060 due to the ridges and rust in the bores. Story was it came from completely loaded vehicle sitting in a field without the hood. WHYYYYY!
    I separated the 401 from the god awful super duper heavy Dynaflow and found it has a cracked cylinder in the number 7 hole. No other issues with it though. Heads look good. The machinist mic'd it and it was standard bore.
    The 364 I had to open up and separate from the ST400 trans was the worst of all of them. I literally had to smash most of the pistons out. It also had a cracked cylinder, not to mention terrible rusting in several of the other cylinders. The heads are also toast. I didn't even take this one to the machinist.
    The short 364 rotated freely and when taken down the only issue was the main caps were shimmed with some homemade material. The center main cap was super loose when removed. The machinist mic'd it and found it to be standard bore.
    Conclusion is that money will be spent on what ever I choose. I have a load of ambition but not the funds to match it. I would do all of them if I could. The 53 is the main project that I will be spending most of my time and sweat on. We thought we would be keeping it mostly original due to it having everything still on it but it has a bit more rust and some structural issues with it than we had thought. It may get a more than mild customization than first thought. Im going to start with the truck due to it being the closest to being complete and driving.
    The question is what do I put in what. The truck will be a daily during the short summers here. Drive 20 miles total round trip to work and back with the occasional trips down main and to the hardware store on the weekends. The 364 or 401 would be fine. The Buick, like I said will be what we work on to be our cool cruiser car. I had a Wildcat theme I wanted for the Buick but Im not sure its a viable effort with the 425 now.
    Do I sleeve the 401 or redo the main journals and caps on the 364 with .030 over for both for the truck and go .060 on the 425 for the Buick and hope for the best? Or do I do just the 401 and 364 for the two vehicles?
    The 401 is a 62 two barrel and is I think would have been the 375 Wildcat with the low compression. The head castings are weird and look to be missing a number. Not sure if the head would be the low compression factor or if that would have been a cam and carb or piston thing. I didn't know what the 364 was in other than it was an airplane tug.
    Sorry for the wall of text. What are your thoughts? I have gratuitous nailhead photos if needed.
    Also I have many questions about a 322 project too. I'll wait to see how this is received first.
     
  2. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Well-Known Member

    You will most likely be throwing good money after bad on a .060 425.

    The best bet would be to send the 364 to the Martins at Centerville Auto and maybe use the parts from the 401 and 425 as money towards another engine in better shape to rebuild.

    Nailhead builds are not cheap, but if done right, put it and the pet turtle in the same will, as they will likely live out the same lifespan.

    If nothing else, give Matt or Russ a call and talk with them before you throw another nickel in the grass.

    http://centervilleautorepair.com/
     
  3. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    Thanks for responding to my first novel.
    That was my thought on the 425. I just had to hear it from someone else. I don't think it is viable to ship them out to California from here but I will certainly look at that. I had planned to contact them prior to starting on which ever one I choose. I did hear Centerville is more than a year out so thats an issue too. But I have not called them yet to confirm that.
    The machinist we have here has done nails before and has been good to deal with. There are a few nailheads running around in town here.
    Is the 62 401 a dog or is it the internals that were changed for the low compression?
     
  4. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Well-Known Member

    Other than the cracked #7 hole, how is the crank, main saddles, journals, caps, and heads?

    .030 over is about the most you want to try on the 401, otherwise, you will likely be dealing with heat issues, even with low compression.

    Compression was determined by pistons and not much difference between the two.

    You can build the 401, put a 4bbl (Q-jet) or 2x4 setup and it will be pretty stout even in stock build.

    If the local machine shop is good with nailheads, I would be talking to them.
    (good to talk and get input from the folks who will be doing the work, then you can back and forth with them and the input you get from anyone else, and still get centered with the shop.)
     
  5. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    The cranks in both the 401 and 364 look good. Haven't had them looked at yet by someone who knows though. I'll have him look at them as well. If the 364 has wore out main saddles is that a sinker? I thought I read somewhere it was not and that you can build those up?
    I have the 2x4 for the 425 so that would go towards the 401. I have a single 4 barrel intake for the 401 also. I don't have that for the 364 and they are hard to find.
     
  6. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Well-Known Member

    I would get everything evaluated with a properly calibrated mk1 mod 1 eyeball device and then go from there. Otherwise, you are going to be all over the place with to many variables that may end up being wasted time. Or, you can learn a lot in that process and might be to your liking. :)
     
  7. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    Ha! Will do. Thanks again for looking.
    Jon
     
    TrunkMonkey likes this.
  8. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Well-Known Member

    Sure. I'll be keeping an eye out for progress. Happy hunting! :)
     
  9. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

    Jon,

    I am NOT disputing anything that Micheal has said. IF the crank on the 425 is N/G then you can use the 401 crank in the '65 LX. You just need to grind off the flange off the rear of the 401 crank, (because of the DynaFlow trans) & install an adapter you can get from myself or Russ.
    The 1st. thing you need to do on whichever "Nail" you choose is to have it sonic tested. You need to know what the base is to start the rebuild & which direction you would need to go. You wouldn't start building a new home on an old crumbling foundation or wall, would you??? So you at least need to do some investigating beforehand. Know what I mean???
    Because of the weight of the reciprocating assembly the bores need to have at least .150" thick walls. From the factory brand new most were not that thick. I've bored 425's out to .0975", BUT I had to do some filling of the water jackets with an Epoxy up to the large freeze plugs on the sides. The left side will take approx. 14-18ozs. The right will take from 32-38ozs. I will put in the right the same amount as the left when done. This has NO AFFECT on the cooling system OR the oil temps. In fact most times it runs cooler because more coolant is being circulated around the upper portion rather than the lower portion. You're ONLY eliminating two quarts, no big deal, just have a properly sized radiator to cool as nec.
    I can't say now on how many I have done this way with ZERO problems.
    As for bore sizes on the 425 you have MANY options as far as bore size goes. From .0075" over the +.30" you have now out to as much as .0975" over minus the .030".
    You need to think outside of the box on these "Nails" as most want to go the standard over-bores for both the 401 & the 425. The problem with the standard bores is the GOOD rings are not available for it in the standard over-bores. I worked with a piston manufacturer for almost two years to design & come up with a forged piston which comes with rings, pin fitting & wrist pins at a pretty favorable cost over others forged pistons. Produced with DEEP valve reliefs for at least a .700" lift made as light as possible right from the very beginning. A stock 425 piston is approx. 728 grams. The pin is aprox. 225 grams. On average mine weigh approx. 800 grams & can be made lighter for no extra $$$$. Being lighter makes it get what is has sooner because there's less reciprocating weight, are more efficient which increases fuel mileage & longevity. Each set is made to your specs. for YOUR ENGINE at whatever compression ratio you would like to end up with. Off the shelf pistons which are cast you will be lucky to get 8-1.
    There are so many things that come into play that you haven't even thought about yet.
    My Nichols worth.

    Tom T.
     
    56buickboy, Ziggy and TrunkMonkey like this.
  10. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    Tom, thanks for the reply. I will take my 401 and 364 cranks to my machinist tomorrow and see where they are at, weather permitting. We are supposed to get hammered with snow tonight. Got to love spring. Im not sure if he does sonic testing or if anyone in town does. He will know.
    We decided last night, my financial manager/wife and I that we will be keeping the 425. I really want it for our 53 and what we had been planning for it all along. While I complete my 63 pickup we can look for other items for it if need be and prep for what has to be done to strengthen it. Im very interested in the sonic testing so I hope there is someone close that can do it. My carbs look shot too, so there is another thing to maybe look for besides a crank and maybe a block. Its good to know that I can get pistons to meet what I need. We agreed this is what we will try and shoot for for the 53.

    So the decision needed to be made now will be which motor goes into the 63. 364 or the 401.

    What are your thoughts or anyone else's on rebuilding the mains back up on the 364? There is only one cap that was loose after removing the bolts, but all were shimmed. The machinist stated he could build them up and then bore it back to spec. The other issue would be finding a 4 barrel intake for it. I have a 6x2 Off but thats a lot more carbs to buy. Super cool factor withstanding.:)
    The 401 needs a sleeve like I mentioned before and thats about it. I think the cost of the machining will be a wash between the two.
     
  11. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    By the way, here are the carbs for the 425 if anyone can or wants to diagnose over the internet. Id like to hear what you think about their appearance.
    Some things move, some don't.
    425 Dual Carb.jpeg 425 Front Carb.jpeg
    425 Back Carb.jpeg
     
  12. cooterbfd

    cooterbfd cooterbfd

    Idle thought........if money is an issue and the 322 is in good shape, could you freshen that up and put that in the C-10, and invest the extra cash in the LX???
     
  13. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    Not sure of the 322s condition either. The 53 is getting a going through this summer once everything warms up. It does turn over but thats about all I know about right now except it had a hopped up coil and distributor (for the time) and the frame has an extra hole. Like for dual pipes but right now it only has a single exhaust. Not sure if it was raced before and maybe has a newer 322 or if mom and pop told Jr. to put everything back the way it was. It was a last registered in 1964.
    Money isn't necessarily the issue, I mean it always is. I just want to put it where it needs to be. I know these things cost money to own and run right. I have a plan for that 322 also. Lots of ambition. ;)

    I did find a shop that will sonic test my motors for only 30 bucks a pop. He is a week out and I'll drop them off at the end of the week. The 364 will be what I put in the truck as I have more parts for it than I have for the 401. It will get sonic tested after the 425 does. I'll save the 401 crank for the 425 if that gets the green light.

    Do all the blocks require the same .150" thickness in the cylinder walls or is that for the 425 only? I would interpit Toms reply that they all need that thickness.
     
  14. telriv

    telriv Founders Club Member

  15. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    Thank you.
     
  16. thegrants

    thegrants Member

    The dual quads look pretty crusty, last set I had rebuilt cost me close to a grand, if you want to sell in the future I am interested thanks
     
  17. Lobucrod

    Lobucrod Well-Known Member

    If sleeve the 401 block with the one cracked cylinder. I’ve been running a sleeved 401 for years with no problem. You can always put a couple of Edelbrock carbs on the dual quad intake if you can’t get the original carbs to function.
     
    Bigpig455 likes this.
  18. Babeola

    Babeola Well-Known Member

    Sleeves can be stronger then a stock cylinder when done right. We had a 650 HP 462 with a sleeve for several years. When that engine let go the sleeve was still just fine. I think it was $90 for the sleeve and installation back then (early 90s). I don't know what it would be now?

    Cheryl :)
     
  19. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    Thegrants, I'm going to take the carbs off the manifold this evening and see what the under side looks like. I'll keep you in mind if I sell. Hoping to keep the whole kit and caboodle if possible though.

    The Edelbrocks would be a go to if I can't save the originals.

    Sleeving is a lot more now. At least here it is. Looking at at least 3 bills per hole. There 401 does only need one which would be fine in the scheme of a build. The 364 won't need it at this point, but it is the same cost to rebuild and line bore the mains. Which may or may not be an issue with the 364 right now.

    Just dropped off the 425 and the 364 to get sonic tested. Should have an answer to thickness by next week. The guy wasn't to thrilled about the job, but at $30 bucks a block I guess he aint making that much. Fingers crossed though.

    The waiting is the worst part.
     
  20. 18CEOD

    18CEOD Active Member

    Well I finally got the blocks back. The number on the 425 look good and the 364 only had one hole with a .150. The 425 had two holes with .170. I had the 401 done too and the smallest was .170 in one hole.

    IMG_0182.jpeg IMG_0183.jpeg IMG_0184.jpeg IMG_0185.jpeg
     

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