The sky isn't falling, just Musclecar prices....

A high percentage of musclecar owners are in their late 40's to early 60's that have either been forced into early retirement or lost their jobs completely. And a lot of those people are located right here in Michigan and were associated or even directly employed by the gone-forever US auto industry. It had nothing to do with making bad financial decisions, but more of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, getting old, or trusting in the security of the larger private corporations for your entire career only to be tossed out like an obsolete piece of machinery when you need it the most.

There's not much you can do about it, either, as you can back off on your lifestyle a lot, but the cost of even living around here is still very high with property taxes and other associated taxes to support the ones you mention who did make poor decisions, or the unbelievable number of people that are supported by public funds either in the welfare/unemployment funds or in maintaining their life style that we all had not that long ago and have given up.

Hard to walk away from the equity in your home to relocate to another locale where the employment prospects are better or the cost of living is much more friendly to those beyond the age of meaningful employment. BTW that age is a lot lower than many realize these days, and the havens for that are getting oversaturated and harder to find.

Since you can't sell your home here, (no market or buyers even at giveaway prices) , you can't get away from the costs of ownership to protect your equity. Some of us paid off our homes, new cars, and other "luxuries" we can't afford anymore. Those were very sound decisions to get the monthly commitments down to a manageable level. We even sold our dream house and downsized when the property taxes went over $10,000 per year just to live in the home I designed, my wife and I built, and where I raised my daughter. We saw the train wreck coming with fixed income, and with 3 new cars and that tax monster.

When you are still going backward just paying medical expenses and property taxes, the cars will have to go sooner or later. I just hope I can stretch mine out enough years that it really won't matter to me. My hobby has been self supporting for many years, but now is also a major potential source for funding for living expenses, and maybe even a cheap vacation someday. Many others are in that boat already or even worse.

Don't even bring up diesel prices to take the cars to meets or shows. That's going to take a major dip very soon. $4.15/gallon? Even at 15 MPG on my F250 (with or without the trailer, makes no difference on flat land) that's over $.27 per mile.

On the brighter side, though, I'm taking new interest in my "ricer" as it gets 25- 30 MPG, is fun to drive, and goes like hell (especially as compared to the **** boxes that are starting to populate the roads with worse to come). That works out to less than half the cost of running the diesel. I'm not afraid to drive it on the roads like I am with my Oldsmobiles, but it can't pull the trailer....... I'm thinking of adding some bigger wheels and wider tires, lower it down a few notches, maybe a few appearance improvements, and definitely some performance improvements, BUT NO FART PIPES!

:laugh:

Also love my garden tractors! I'm into old wheel horses and have 3. All are from the 80's and still pretty inexpensive to buy and keep going. Add-on attachments galore at good prices and interchange all over the place on these top end tractors. New ones go for a fortune today, but the ones 10-20 years old are very reasonable and last forever if you pick the right ones.

Mowing and plowing snow doesn't quite have the thrill of slamming the gears of my W31 or 442's, but still is very satisfying. Maybe I should add some Turbo blue to the tractor's fuel to get that aphrodisiac thrill of smelling the exhaust.....and maybe headphones playing tapes of old race cars while I mow.........with no worries about a DUI! Maybe a few mangled shrubs and scarred up bark on the trees, and the occasional incident with the garage door, or tipping over, etc. :laugh:

I'm doing it the same way I've done with the musclecars for almost 50 years. Look for bargains in used stuff, and be judicious in what I do. The sad part, though, is it will not be a great investment like the muscle cars have been up to this point. That's gone except for a few very rare exceptions.

So times change...and many will have to change with them. We have. Unfortunately that doesn't bode well for our musclecars and the industries that support them. We're now looking at the total cost of each race as getting there
and back is becoming the deciding factor more and more. Sure glad there are a lot of races nearby, but will really miss the long range ones.

Sisu

 

Government bailout program.
Housing market in the toilet.
Banks won't lend money.
401K's dwindling away.
Stock Market Crashing,and re-crashing on daily basis.
Industry jobs gone to China.
Consumer confidence at all time low.
Economic downturn(read second depression)

I don't think any of us saw this coming when this thread was started, so in light of todays events, where does this leave you in todays classic car market? Are you a buyer scooping up deals, or are you one of the unfortunates that are forced to sell your "baby" to make ends meet?

We're not in Kansas anymore Toto:Smarty:

 

Well we will see next week at Barrett Jackson in Vegas. I dont expect prices to be very high, but then again most of the quality cars wont be present either, as it appears for now, alot of the better quality MuscleCars are still being held by collectors who are not selling yet.

 

Tom I read your first post and I think it still applies. Buy now if you can. I bought a 70 W31 car 2 weeks ago that would have been twice what I paid 1 year ago. I may have to hold on to it for a while, but I hope to make a profit. At Mecum last week ( and I believe Mecum reflects real prices as compared to BJ) the nice cars still brought good money. Off some but clearly not too bad. BUT alot happened last week in the market that may scare buyers off. Just MHO

 

Government bailout program.
Housing market in the toilet.
Banks won't lend money.
401K's dwindling away.
Stock Market Crashing,and re-crashing on daily basis.
Industry jobs gone to China.
Consumer confidence at all time low.
Economic downturn(read second depression)

This is what is going to dictate how the collector car market looks from this point on.

Everyone is affected by this fallout....big or small !

 

Too bad so many people are into classic cars for the $$$, instead of the love of the cars.
:dollar:

 

I didn't want this to become a hobbyist vs. the investors thread, I was just interested in hearing what people think is going to happen in these uncertain times with our cars.
Maybe with the soft stock market people will continue to spend money on the things they can purchase and enjoy, like these car's, instead of gambling,or letting someone else gamble with your money on wall street?

I'm personally into the cars for how they make me feel, and that creates a love of the cars, but at the same time I have to be concerned of their current value in the case of an emergency situation where cash would need to be generated. Doesn't make sense to put 10-15k into a car that's only worth $7500, I don't care how much a person loves it, that's just not rational thinking.
I hope everyone can hang on and get through this, but I'm afraid even with as bad as things are right now, we still haven't seen the worst of it.:ball:

 

What he said. And if you can afford it, get them now while they are reasonable. It may get worse but the cars are almost cheap now. It is better than the stock market and you can still love and enjoy them. If you make a profit 2 years from now-- What the hell is wrong with that. :Brow:

 

Agree, buy what you like and can afford. Life is short.The stock market will eventually come back.It is like anything,.... it gets overdone on the upside and on the downside, fear and greed, then reverts to a norm. John, my problem is I tend to get attached to my cars.

 

Boy, those words couldn't ring more true in light of our current lending melt down.:spank:

 

Ditto!:gp:

 

I am here at Barrett Jackson, and I can tell you if there ever is anything considered as a buyers market...this is it!! Lots of nice cars going for 1/2 the regular pre-hyped prices of the past few years.

Even classics going for relatively cheap prices. the only cars that appear so far to be holding their prices or even rising in value are Pontiacs!! I have seen some absolute junk Pontiacs roll across the block for 30-40K THAT you wouldn't look twice at any cars show.

However this was Thursday's auctions, we'll see about the weekend when alot of the money comes in here.

 

I read through this thread and decided to leave my 2 cents worth. I was going to post this opinion on my recent original topic ("possible new GS owner" in "wet behind the ears"), but thought this would be a better place for my thoughts. Bear with me, I'm going to ramble a bit.....
I am a small collector (13 cars/trucks not including the every day drivers and my old RV). I presently own a variety of makes and models, foreign and American. I have purchased them to own and drive, not for investment. One of the advantages that I happened to fall into is the increase in some of their values. I have been asked multiple times on different vehicles if I would sell it. I could have made some serious money if I decided to sell, but I bought them for my OWN enjoyment and didn't even entertain an offer. My friends think I'm nuts and I get reminded constantly now of "think how much you could have made on that car". I certainly do realize that the value of my collection is no way near what it was a year or two ago.
The only reason for a fire sale is that you have no choice but to get rid of something to pay for something else or lower your expenses. I'm no different. If need be, I'll do what I have to do, even if it means that I can't get what the car was worth a couple of years ago. But, when out in the market buying a car or truck, I try to make sure that I get what I am paying for and that it should always be worth what I am paying for it at the time. Those who jumped into the collector car market as it was on the upswing and peek (yes, I believe the market has seen its peek) will no doubtfully find themselves in a heep of trouble. And I do not believe that just for today, I think that they over paid and will never get their money back out of them. Don't get me wrong, high caliber and quality cars that are documented will always find a home for big dollars. But, really, are they finding their new homes at the same level they were bought at? One only has to look at the Mopar Hemi cars to see the rollar coaster ride they have been on for many a year (not just recently), with the last few years topping the charts. And then there was the big block 1967 Vettes, the 1970 SS Chevelles, etc., etc., etc... When the guy that bought those high dollar cars two to three years ago tries to get out from under the car now, he takes a beating. Not surprisingly, a lot of those guys who over paid the big bucks for those cars don't really know cars. They were buying them for an investment. And just like their other investments, this one fell too. I believe it does make a difference for the reason you buy a collectible car to begin with. Most guys like me do not have the $$$'s to "just invest" with the idea we will make money on them in the short or long term. Therefore, we are a little more picky about how much we spend on what. I have always felt that any car or truck I have bought (or sold) would be a fine addition to my collection and buy it just for that reason. Therefore, I am not overly concerned with what the market does on their value. Sure, I'm like everyone else that hopes it value rises so that when I'm too old to drive them I can get some dollars to retire on, but that is not my main objective when I buy it initially.
Some guys have to sell because they just need the money to pay off debt. Some need the money just to survive. Needless to say, if you are married, the wife will almost always look at that car "that just sits in the garage" as a means out of some financial trouble. These are the folks I feel bad for. The shape this economy is in is not their fault, yet they have to give up something they love to survive. Then there are the guys that sell them because they don't want to take any more of a beating on their investment. Those guys I DO NOT feel sorry for. They bought the car for the wrong reason at the wrong time for the wrong price. And those are the guys who drove the collector car market to levels that made it impossible for the average guy to buy a decent car for the right price in. Now the values are down. Are they as low as they will get? Unfortunately, I do not believe so. But it is really hard to get a grip on what the "real" value of cars should be because of what has happened over the last few years of over appreciation (just like the stock market).
I joined this site because I have always wanted to add a 1970 or 1971 GS to my collection (I do not have a Buick yet). Could have pulled the trigger a few years ago at a car show, but by time the wife said okay, the car was sold. I was going to check out a 1970 GS455 and checked the available sites for values and found they differ substantially. I thought I might ask on this forum for some guidance, as it seemed there are quite a few owners of GS's. I went out to check it out with some anticipation and expectations. When I got there the car wasn't what I thought it should be, or represented to be, for the money he was asking. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe that car (solid as it was), in need of some restoration (because of its age) was worth the 18K he was asking for it. I was not trying to get the "unbelievable" deal, just wanted value for my money. I went there with all expectations of bringing the car home and I walked away. Again, as it was going to join my collection, I expected it to be a good value.
I think the market will continue to fall based on the current economic situation we are in. But, I also believe that it will come back again. Will it ever hit the levels of 2005,6 and 7? I personally don't think so unless the wealthy of this country decide to go back into the collectible car market and throw big money at it once again. Add to that, as time goes on the baby boomers (including myself) are getting older. And just as it happened to the antique car market of yesterday, the muscle car market will also fade away. But I, like others, plan to take advantage of this downward trend in the collector car market and fill in a couple of cars I have wanted to own and drive but could not afford because of the sky rocketing values of yesterday that are more realistic today.
Bruce

 

Well stated.

 

Thanks.....and oh yea, I'm still in the market for that '70 or '71 BIG BLOCK GS that I can affordray: !!!
Bruce

 

Bruce

Put the $5K more that the GS455 will cost into the engine of a GS350. You will still go really fast and get something close to gas mileage. Your front end will also weigh 300lbs less.

 

The more we drive 'em, the more people will want 'em. Prices are down not only because of the economy, but also because people don't see 'em anymore. Out of sight, out of mind...get what I mean?

 

Bruce - WELL STATED.

 

Couple cases in point:

The 1970 Motion GSX, previously a no sale at over $600K last year, was a no sale this year at $187K, and now it's still up for sale again.

Interesting 70 GS455 here. Note that it was bought for $90K last year, he wanted $98K last month, and now the owner can't dump it for $70K. http://www.volocars.com/1970-buick-gs-convertible-4-speed-m-20-455-360-h.p.-c-251.htm

I've seen a huge decline in 73/74 SD455 Pontiacs on E-Bay in the past 2 months. GTO's, Judges, 442's and W-30's, they're up for sale, but nothing is hitting the reserves. I recently did a search on E-Bay for "Completed Listings", and was stunned to see what's passed us in the past 2 months. Tons of really nice, rare cars, were no sales. Lots of cars being dumped right now. Restored, partially restored, people are hurting for money.

Not the $226.000 1963 Lemans of course, but ya know what I mean. p

As for me, I'm a hobbyist, so this downturn in the Musclecar market hasn't affected me. The rest of the economy has :spank: , but since I don't buy and sell cars for a profit, and was never involved in "flipping" cars, rebodies, changing VIN's, or any of that other dishonest stuff, I'm not affected.

As John Lennon once said, "I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round. I just love to watch them roll."

 

Bruce,

Shoot me a PM with your email address and / or phone number, and I will get in touch with you. I occasionally find good deals on good GS's, and would be happy to help you in your search.

Thanks, Chris