Attention: Perfect Blocks Available

It can be done, BUT..........
Who, out there, provides block machining perpendicular and squared to the cank centerline? I have read so much about deck plates, correct align boring, etc and the multitude of problems by NOT doing the job accurately. One member here explained the importance of CNC or BHJ machining for all the block machining and the problems avoided by doing it right.


This thread prompted me to persue this issue; http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=98242&highlight=bhj

AND,This really enlightened me,...READ THIS:
........ "I use a BHJ Block Tru fixture to square the decks perpendicular and parallel to the centerline of the crank and cam bores. It uses crank centerline as the datum line and the cam centerline as the 90 degree bank angle reference. Rod length + pin height + half of the crank stroke= zero deck height. Simple as that.

The reason that the deck must be so square to the crank is that a lot of boring machines reference off the squared deck surface (mine does). Bore indexing plates mount to this now trued surface as well. The bores being true to the crank centerline is imparative to proper ring seal and bearing life. If it is crooked by only .005" it will wear a bearing with only .0025" clearance real quick. Not good.

Some boring machines have a bar that goes through the main saddles and the block lays on them, and on the pan rails. These are difficult to properly index bores on, because it requires shimming the block to square the corrected deck surface to the boring head. CNC machines will correct decks and bores as well, with the right program.

If the block is incorrectly decked and then bored from that surface, it is not eaisy to correct it. You will end up with removing extra material from the deck to square it and will need to re-bore it. If it already at the max oversize...well, custom pistons or sleeves..Expensive..

This is another reason you must make sure the shop doing the work has the ability, and equipment, to do the job right the first time, especially with rare and valuable parts. The shop man should be able to walk you right back to the machine a show you how it is done and the equipment they will be doing it on. If there is not a large CNC machine there, some shiney BHJ tooling should be. Don't accept someone who says "we have our own way to do it..." It may be square in all 4 corners, but without index fixtures, it will not be perpendicular (90 degree corrected).

To continue my ramble...make sure the surface finish will be in the 20RA range. A stone grinder or CBN cutter will do it. An older machine with multiple carbide cutters may or may not, depending on if they are sharp and set up right. I have seen some real poor finishes from these older machines. You will see blackening of the gasket on fiber gaskets and weeping on MLS gaskets without the right finish."

* (Above info copied from post #23 here...: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=219441&highlight=357 )
Aligning everyting to the crank centerline solves so many problems, oil pressure, bearing wear, bore and ring seal, true deck leveling, internal friction etc.

QUESTION: Who amoung us provides BHJ or CNC perfection for peace of mind besides TA Performance?

 

I believe that post was made by Ron, who does all of JW's work

 

Great.
I have a lot of respect for that guy, as well as Jim, who obviously knows what needs to be done. Thanks for noting that.

 

Anyone in St. Louis or Memphis area that has the equipment and Buick knowledge to machine a block properly?

 

And you know what? All that effort to setup the block square and straight then most shops/guys have no idea how to properly level the machine and make it straight and square across it's travels. Another common no-no I've seen is having the mill or honing machine laying on more than 1 slab of concrete. Just as bad is putting the mill or hone or whatever piece of precision machinery on concrete that is too thin. Most people would think the cast iron base of most machinery would be pretty ridged but most mills are about as ridgid as a movie ticket.

I'm not bad mouthing anyones work here, just pointing out something that I see on a nearly daily basis that most machine shop owners rarely think about.

regards

 

More to Gary's point... St Louis to Philpot KY to visit AM+P might be a safe bet for a few hours drive.

 

cobwebs in my brain......

Did Buick register the blocks, bores, etc off of the CL of the crank, or the bottom surface of the oil pan rail? Seems I recall some possible issues with overboring the cylinders when registering off of the CL of the crank, especially if core shift was apparent.

Tommy

 

Reguardless how the factory originally machined our blocks 40 years ago, two factors now give us the chance for a better block...
The block has been heat cycled thousands of times and is now setteled into a more stable core than when it was new.
Add to that, the technological improvements in maching (CNC and BHJ), accuracy, and innovation, and you can very likely transform a good ole block into a near perfect one today.

The problem is finding the machinery (and operator) within 700 miles of home.

 

AMT Performance. They are in St. Louis. (314)-522-6222. They have the shop closed to the public during the week so they can get some work done, but if you call someone will talk to you or call you back and set up a time to meet with you. They have done many Buicks and do really good work.

 

Thanks Buickracer69,
I have a daughter in ST. Louis, easy drive from here, and was hoping to find a well suited shop there. I'll be checking this out.

 

Actually, with the BHJ blok-Tru, there is a bar that goes through the mains, supported by precision centering rings and another that centers through the cam bore. Then a fixture plate attaches to the front and that is what the block is squared to the machine head off of. It all sits in the risers of a machine that is level to itself. Theoretically, you could set the whole thing up on a un-level floor and get perfect results...for that matter, some machines could be upside down and work...well, that's a bit far fetched, but you know..
As far as honing machines, most would work fine on a dirt floor in all reality. The hone heads are self centering with shoes and don't depend on a level floor. It does help the head slide to glide smoother from side to side if they are level (on a cylinder hone) though.

My surfacing machine, with the risers and bar in place is accurate to less than .0005" in either direction, end to end or side to side. Having it dead level on a nice concrete floor only helps speed up the set-up process. I could do it with just the deck mic, and no level at all, if it came down to getting Gilligan off the island or not.

Another thing to consider when it comes to leveling machinery, is to level off the machine head. Correcting the machine on a surface that you have just cut on the machine works great. I level my seat and guide machine off the quill head. I level the crank balancer off the risers with my BHJ precision bar, not off the ways.

I agree, having level equipment is extremely important. I poured my shop addition with 6 inches of 5000# mix and 12" around the outside. I check machine level often as the weather changes.


Anyway, I'm going to cover all this stuff soon on here. I will be starting on my own 455 soon and I will post pictures of each machining operation with a brief overview as I go along. I hope this will shed some light on the whole machining "mystery". It's really not voodoo science and it's pretty fun when it's your own stuff.

 

Thank you Ron,
This is awsome information. I read the info on BHJ's website. I bet 99 percent of the shops can't offer this kind of precission (perfection).
Why would anyone accept anything less?
I'm looking foreward to your 455 build.Please do share that with us.

After being screwed so many times and by some who I (& others) trusted, I feel like I want one last chance.

After 35 years with my 67 GS, and all the failures and dissapointments, I have developed an obsessive compulsive goal of getting things done right, but also developed a paranoia about who touches my Buick stuff.
I'm starting over......
I am going for TA heads.
Then a block properly machined.
At age 69, I can't handle any more mistakes, money and time is too short. Wish I had known years ago, what I know now.

* V8BUICK,COM IS PRICELESS....
Thanks to JW and all the good contributing members here.

 

Thank you for that! I think a lot of the info has been covered here already but you really must go digging for it. Having done my engine recently I learned that. So it will be priceless to see the operations and understand why theyre needed, and lso be able to pass that info onto your machinist.

 

I'm hoping that guys can get their local shops to realize that value added to the finished product by having the right tooling. Believe me, it won't take long for all your local shops to step up and buy tooling when they get people that are asking for particular services to be done. It's a win-win for the shops and customers. People want it done, and the tooling will pay for itself in a short time.

My goal is for people on here to know what questions to ask and understand what services are important in rebuilding their engines correctly. This helps the community as a whole, as these cars seem to migrate all over the country. There is nothing worse than having a high dollar "Barrett Jackson" type car end up with a poorly machined, bad running engine. It takes the wind out of peoples sails and hurts the hobby.
I have seen some pretty atrocious stuff over the years, believe me. I don't have any secrets when it comes to machining. I share my findings and procedures with a national publication (ok, they do pay me), and do my best to help people for the love of the craft. "Bitter wife syndrome" can knock the bottom out of the industry one customer at a time. When mom doesn't get her new kitchen because dad's engine had to be built twice, it's not good!

I'll start a new post with my engine when I get my photo thing figured out. This crappy iPad won't load pics. It's frustrating.

 

In the past, I've aligned some seriously large high torque/HP machinery. Steam turbine to reduction gears for an aircraft carrier, for example. 18 foot waybed for a milling machine, within a few thou, anyone? The aircraft carrier was easier, they had marine engineers doing the math. That slab-straddling milling machine was a nightmare. The floor moved, depending on how the sun was shining on it. When you're talking thousandths, life is tough. Thermal expansion has to be taken into account.

I think, personally, that the shops equipped and knowledgeable to do what needs to be done are getting fewer. I had a shop close to work do my SBC in Y2K, and they screwed THAT up. How hard is it to turn an SBC crank right?

FWIW, nobody delivers "perfection". They deliver a product to a level of precision based on the dimensions and tolerances of their machines, and their ability. You'd better be sure that they "get it" when they're doing your engine.

 

Perfection is achieving results, on your finished product, that are at, or closer, than the tolerances dictated by the industry as being "blueprint specification".

I like everything to be within .0002" and .2 grams from zero. The exception to this would be where the workpiece has thermal or core shift, incidental wear or corrosion.

For example, you would not cut main caps to the point where the crank to cam centerline is grossly reduced, just to clean up the bore at the parting line, when the measurement perpendicular to that axis is the most important.

You wouldn't hone a bore to so there is .002" extra clearance to remove incidental pitting either. The extra clearance is far more detrimental that the pits will ever be.

It's all about knowing what is most important in the scope of the components operating together and the engine performing to it's best potential.

Here's an actual example
---------------------------
I knew of a guy in the industry who had OCD. He would cut the rods and caps and keep re-honing the housing bores till they cleaned up the bore 100% to size, to the point where the lengths were now all over the place. By the time he was done the bolts had been cycled to the point of fatigue as well. His compulsion to strive for "perfection" actually resulted in a worse finished product.

What would you rather have a machinist tell you when you went to pick up your rods; How there is some incidental shadowing at the parting line bore area. It is because he only cuts the minimum from the parting surfaces to clean them up before honing the bores. They are now within spec at their perpendicular axis. OR the guy who complains what a huge job it was to get them "perfect" and how it took him three hours of cutting, re-torquing and honing? So, which would you prefer?? How dedicated to "perfection" is a person?

My point is, sometimes "perfection" has it's compromises that can result in a worse product in the overall picture. This is what I would like to cover in my build.

We are building engines, not nuclear weapons, artificial hearts or microprocessors....that needs to be kept in mind.

 

Unbelievable, building an engine has finally turned into rocket science. What are the percentage of shops that have all the above mentioned equipment. I believe all this hype about a perfect block will lead some to hobbyists into think they just can't afford to have a perfect engine built and give up on the hobby or go to a sbc or whatever. And how absolutely necessary is all this to have a good serviceable engine. We all know the factory don't send them out the door with all this perfection, and they go thousands of miles. I have had several engines built with the proper clearances by reputable machine shops with good results. What prompted me to jump in here were the comments about having to have an engine done twice. I believe this is the sort of thing that will cause the average Buick lover to believe they can't afford to have there cars done.
Don't get me wrong I have the greatest respect for the high tech machinists
and their knowledge. But all this technology is thrown out there as a must have or your engine will puke. It just ain't true.

Bob H.

 

I think that depends on the HP level you are going for ... and what the additional costs are to do it "all".

If you're doing a basic stockish ~400hp rebuild then perhaps it isn't necessary but if your balancing and blue-printing the motor anyways for higher HP then I dont think there are much more steps involved ... and cost wise shouldn't increase the $$$ to build that much.

 

LSM Engineering System's out of Waterford,Michigan can tell you the major difference in doing any machine work of any kind, even Reher-Morrison out of Arlington,Texas will explain the major difference in machining process's for you. If you have the Block done correctly meaning, cam bore's,crank bore's, and Cylinder bore's all done correctly you will have any where between 20 to 50 horsepower difference then standard machine work done. I went to school for four and half years and studied this and called around to get confirmation on it. I prefer LSM over any one because they were the first people ever to make a Small Block Chevy and Big Block Chevy to make 1000 horsepower plus on pump gas and it's 89 octane not 92. Knowing the truth and getting confirmation is the best. Good luck.

 

I'm saying a machinist must have...
* good equipment AND
* the knowledge AND
* the motivation
If not, the probability of a top performing and durable engine is very iffy.

1. I invested $1000 in my 67 big port heads and got a great port job, but....
the problem was, a different guy was hired to do the valve work and when I got the heads the valves were all different heights and all were sunk to hell. Now they are level, but with stacks of spring shims plus shims on the shafts/pedistols to get the rocker geometry back.
2. Got a blueprinted block with all the figures written down. Took it apart later and found many problems. Pistons were .077 below the deck, shiney spots in the bore "used torque plate" I don't think so & etc. No wonder some engines run better than others!!!!
This engine never made near the power it should have.
I have more horror stories to tell.

I see the builds of many, and know their ET and MPH is way off from where they should be.

Most guys think, if it runs good and stays together...HE DID A GREAT JOB.