Attention: Perfect Blocks Available

With all due respect , Bob,

The actual cost between quality, blueprint machining is not much more than getting "production quality" work done...to YOU...

It cost ME a LOT more to be able to do it right though, with a considerably higher investment in machinery and tooling.

I have dedicated my life to this craft though, and I don't have a bean counter telling me that a piece of equipment will not be profitable enough, nor is their a fat-cat owner who wants to take all the profits home for his personal consumption.

 

Rom I think a shop such as yours is great. I'm not sure how you can have all that equipment without raising your overhead to the point where you have to charge more for your work. I guess what I'm getting at is to build a decent engine you don't have to go to extremes. But the way it sounds a lot of guys think you do and are discouraged by it. I have seen posts where there is an inquiry about having an engine built and someone will tell them they have to be prepared to spend 10K or more. That just isn't true. Anyway I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes.:beer

Bob H.

 

Bob,
I have been in the primary business of working with other engine builders, and I have done so for many years. It has given me the latitude to make equipment purchases that a low volume shop normally would not have. For example, I may only build a few engines a month, but I might balance several crankshaft assemblies a week, for other shops. This has made an otherwise non-cost effective piece equipment, an equitable purchase. Fortunately, I am now in a position to where my overhead is reasonable, because the equipment has all paid for itself over the years. I keep buying machinery with the same strategy. I made some personal sacrifice, over time, to get to this point, but the end game worked out the way I wanted. When some other shop owners were buying new trucks, I was buying a line honing machine. Then they would bring me their blocks to machine, in their new trucks. Years later, the truck is gone, but I still have my machine.

Most of the shops that are still in business in this area, have done the same thing, and in the end, the customers get reasonably priced, quality work. The pricing still pretty much revolves around what the market will bear.

I build nice, updated, unleaded fuel running, hydraulic roller cam equipped muscle car engines on a regular basis for $6-8,000.00. Nice small block Chevys start out at under 5k.. Sure, if a guy wants a ton of custom parts and is willing to spend a fortune and wants more performance, I'll accommodate him as well.

 

Fact is even factory rods are out quite a bit. For a budget build I thought I would use some NOS 76 rods. They varied 30+ grams. A set from a 1968 430 12 grams. It took 3 sets of rods to get the small end within a gino. Then grind the rods to balance near the big end for the correct weight. Side clearace is another issue. Some BBB rods are thicker on the big end than others plus cranks were not machined the same for side clearance.
The 76 NOS block I opened up had .002" on the mains. Everything needs to be measured and you pay accordingly to avoid problems to have oil in between the journals and bearings. It pays to have a competent machinist. There are none near me but hopefully where you live you are lucky.
Ray

 

Ray, you aren't kidding about the rods..
I just finished a set for a 427 chev that were within 4 grams. On the flip side, I am doing a set for a 440 six pack, and TWO are 22 grams light on the big end. It's not like I have a pile of them to choose from either. What I end up doing is making a small weight, the size of the balance pad, and slowly tig welding it on there before the bore is sized. I have had to do this on Chrysler rods more than any other.
I have had to weld small amounts of weight on the small ends too. You just have to be careful with the heat. You probably don't get them any hotter than the heating oven does for assembly, but I just do it slowly anyway.

I'll be weighing my Buick rods soon, now you have me wondering.

Good info, thanks!

 

Attention: Perfect Blocks Available.....As described in this thread..... are being provided by Ron Flood (MN GS455) and Jim Weise, working together.

This is good!

JUST THOUGHT YOU GUYS MIGHT WANT TO KNOW.

 

Know whats funny ? in in the second post of this thread I stated Ron was Jims' machinist - back then he wasn't but now he is :TU:

... Y'all can thank me for arranging the marrage later :TU:

 

Well, actually it was because I moved in that time..

From 40 miles south of him, to 25 miles north of him now.

But the switch has been great, would have driven from the south had I known... No question the switch has improved the program here, in several ways.

JW

 

Good Thread

 

It's actually a wonder that Jim and I had not met far sooner. In all the years of racing, we must have been at different tracks every weekend...We do have quite a few common friends, and not surprisingly, they're Buick guys.


Working with Jim is a machinist's dream. Nothing is ever just "get it close" or "good enough". He has an exact spec for everything, based upon many years of research, experience and proven results. His parts all fit and are designed as components of a full package. It makes the process a lot easier for me, and everything is predictable on Jim's end. It all just works like it should and the clearances are all dead on. Even working on things that Jim has had done in the past is a breeze. I know the other shops he has dealt with and their work was top-notch. We have a lot of really talented guys in this area and we all work together.

Without going into detail... I think there are going to be some really innovative things on the TSP horizon. Jim has some ideas on making his products more accessible, and in a much shorter time span. This will be something that is not currently a "Buick luxury". Parts are becoming more mainstream and new things are in the works.

Wouldn't it be something to start seeing Buick engines in Chevys instead of the other way around?
Many years ago, that was the underhanded way to "cheat" with a street machine. Get a early Buick 455 and throw it in whatever you had. Where else could you get a 300+ hp engine with 500# of torque for $125 at a bone yard? We put one in a pickup truck and converted it to propane. It hauled ass.

 

So what does this cost to machine a block like this I live close to AMT and a few hours drive from Philpot Ky. Is it worth a drive to MN. It might be nice to see a collection of good 455 blocks available for shipping or pickup ready to assemble

 

John,

Here is the complete machining, with oil mods for a 500-600 HP 470.

With cam bearings and front galley plugs installed.

You supply the block, delivery and pick up.

Turn around time?... a week to 10 days.


We also have core blocks and truck freight available. Reasonable prices on both.



As far is any comparison to what any other shop is doing, I really won't go there, neither Ron nor I know what is going on in those shops, but both of them have a loyal customer base and are successful engine builders.

Ron has introduced the BHJ dowel tru procedure as well as the cylinder relocation procedure the program. I was skeptical on the trans dowel thing, so he did it to show me how far they are actually off, on the first block he did for me. i was surprised they were that far off.

The other great thing is block girdle installs.. getting anyone to do that project is hard enough, and forget about time frame. I am sure many of you have experienced waiting months or years to have one installed. Last one he did for me took him a little over a week, for girdle install and complete block machine work.

That, is a wonderful deal, trust me.

And, I finally found someone that would not only put it on, but modify the girdle the way I wanted.. which is machining the rails that go over the main caps, down about .250 from how TA supplies them. Then leaving that .250 in the cap. I believe this goes a long way toward keeping the caps from pinching, an don't believe it compromises the strength of the assembly.

JW

 

Thats a very reasonable price.

Jim;
I know in the past you have mentioned you are very picky about block selection. Everyone on this site has seen the level you clean them to etc...With Larry's comment about the bore being corrected, does this alleviate some of your "block hunting" endeavors in any way?



You have a very compelling explanation on this site about the 6-8 wall thickness, and that one must be picky with that thickness for a performance build. But surely block hunting is not cheap, or easy to do, so does this process make sourcing a "good block" any easier (and thereby more plentiful)?

 

Thank you Jim. I believe that this is important knowledge so people can see what's involved and how much it costs so it can be budgeted. I would bet that a lot of members will see this as reasonable and some will decide to go with a more std rebuild. Reasonable expectations can be clouded by all the talk of 500hp with a stock block but this clears the air as to why a build such as yours cost what they do. I hope to be bringing a block your way soon. So do you prefer to start with the blue blocks for hp applications?

 

Azeem,

Not really.. Cylinder repositioning helps keep more cylinder wall, but thin is thin.. you simply can't move the bore that much. Always start with the best block available, this becomes more critical as the power level and rpm level increases. Luckily for us, 98% of street builds peak about 56-5800 rpm so it's not as bad as it could be if we had to rev them.

John,

On average, the 75-6 blue blocks can be thicker, but I have also seen them with huge core shift issues. If you have more than one, bring the one with the most centered lifter bores in the casting, that most often is a good indicator we have a good piece.

As far as costs, this is pretty basic block work, for all engines, although the oil mods can be throttle back on the more stock stuff. A stock or resto type motor, 71 up block, gets $60 worth of oil mods, vs what is listed here.

JW