Gonzo, we had a great time at MusclePalooza and it was great meeting you! :beer I was expecting someone that looked like a Muppet! :beer You're a stand up guy that understands what racing these cars is all about. :TU: Next year (when I'm rich :laugh: ) I'd like to buy a '69 Judge... I've always wanted a black one (a guy here locally used to have a black one).....then I'd like to buy a '69 Hurst Olds, a Rambler Scrambler, a '69 ZL1 Camaro clone, a Stage 1 GSX..........it only takes money! :laugh: Sure Dave, there's beer in Oklahoma! That's how my race is set up. I've got a break out by 2 tenths and 2 MPH rule, 5/10's Pro Tree (a Full Tree is only for bracket racing !!!!!!!!!!!!!everthing else needs a Pro Tree!!!!!!!), the quick 8 cars get paid to qualify for it, and the rest run 2 out of 3. This race is all about having fun and running against a close ETing car. Plus, like I've mentioned, there's a Stock Appearing Incentive Plan. Check it out! :beer :3gears: Wayne
"I realize I'm wandering into dangerous territory here, but I also fully support the other races" Thanks Dave, I try to welcome as many people as possible and still stay within a Pure/Factory Stock rules format for THAT class. I think I have shown on this thread there is very little if ANY difference between these races. However you can't please everyone. And I don't mean you Brian. The whole concept of "this is the REAL race, and that other race is a fake, or a poseur race" seems very stupid to me. ------------------------------------------ I am here and on other forums to LEARN and have some fun with my car. I enjoy meeting guys like Wayne (and many others) at these events. The more the merrier. If Wayne has a different style of racing than my race or the Pure Stock Drags...thats fine by me. Who am I to say otherwise? I am not trying to form and or join some EXCLUSIVE club. That is a ridiculous premise. The world of Motorsports is huge, The world of Drag racing is a small piece of that, and the world of Pure Stock/ FAST racing is a TINY puddle in the HUGE lake of motorsports. No matter what company is sponsering a race , or if guys like myself and Wayne are spending 1000's of dollars ourselves, to hold a race its all for the good. It HELPS the whole concept move along and gain more participants. Does anybody want to see the same quick 8 face off against each other year after year?? For years on end?? I don't think so except maybe the quick 8. The basic idea I think should still be: Lets go have some fun, and see great cars, and talk to smart like-minded people. If you wanna do that, then great I am trying to provide a race venue and a place to do it.
The good turnout at the original PSMCDR event has to do more with the time of year than anything else. Dan and Bob have wisely avoided the crowded June-July-August "car events" calendar, which is undoubtedly why their own June event was not nearly as well attended last summer as have been their September events at the same place. The Factory Stock MCDR a couple weeks ago at Kil-Kare in Dayton OH was up against the huge GoodGuys event here at Indianapolis Raceway Park barely 100 miles away the same weekend, for example. And who knows what else? When hobbyists look at their summer calendars, they have to choose which event to go to on a given weekend, what with marque-specific events and a myriad of other collector-car shows, et al, every single weekend. It's cooler in September AND the original PSMCDR is not competing with dozens of other events on the same weekend AND it is run professionally and consistently. No wonder it is such a success. (Glad you like the Studebaker V-8 sound, too, Dave; yes, it IS intoxicating <G>) BP, Team Studebaker
Huh? I was never against Gonzo and I have a great deal of fun at P/S events. The more "liberal" rules for Englishtown don't allow the compression I run and can run as allowed by established events using consistent rules. Unless I'm mis informed, 12.26 is higher than 12, and 13 is even higher! :laugh: I know Jimmy Johnston, among others, run nearly 12.5, which as I understand is higher than 12. o No: I even posted a link to the information, which is public, so it is not a matter of "who is going to check?" Really Dave H hit on my whole point. To use an analogy, franchises like say, McDonalds, don't grow by offering very different menus at each location. No, instead they establish a formula and apply it at every store. A stock Muscle car formula already exists. Bob Palma is also correct on the date. Weddings graduations etc, happen more in May June July also....... which is a bigger factor than if you have the right carb or not. :laugh:
I never said that you were. I'm not knocking Gonzo, but I don't understand how you can have a compression and overbore rule, and then not be willing to check it (so that's why I don't have any engine rules)......so that's why Gonzo changed his rules just a few posts ago. :beer His rules are getting closer to what mine are every day!!! :TU: Your analogy is OK, but you're using it wrong. To change engine rules is like changing cooking utensil rules for the cooks. Gonzo's menu is the same as McDonald's, he's offering stock appearing Muscle Cars. To have a succesful race, what most racers don't understand, and is a FACT, is; Racing is NOT about the racers, it's about the fans. Look at IHRA, NHRA, NASCAR, Disney World...........They'd all be nothing without fans. McDonald's isn't about the cooks (racers), it's about the customers (fans) coming into the store (track).......you have to give them what they want............and fans want side by side, headsup stock looking musclecars racing on hard tires. They don't care what's under the hood that isn't stock.....They don't care what bore your car's got, or how much compression you have, or what stroke you're running.................Look at F.A.S.T...........nobody cares that the engines are stroked, blue printed, heads are mega ported, the intakes are mega ported, there's a lock up trans where one didn't come from the factory........People like seeing (from the stands or from their recliners while reading Hot Rod) stock looking Muscle Cars going fast on hard tires, so that's what I've formed my rules around. I'm not going to make my cooks use a certain oven, grill, or utensil to cook the burgers.....as long as they look like cooks and make burgers, they can work for me :Brow: ...........The more burgers I can get, the larger the crowd's going to be, and the better the chances of me at least breaking even are going to be. :laugh: What's funny is, F.A.S.T. has less car count (at least right now, anyway, even though it's rules allow PS and FS also), but more magazine ink! :beer Wayne
The most fans that have ever been at ANY of these events has been at the September Pure Stock race - BAR NONE ! It's a racers race ..... not a "I sure hope the fans are there" race ........ I can't speak for Gonzo or the FAST boys, but the PSMCDR IS for the racers. The fans are there as a secondary bonus ........... Just ask the FAST guys or Gonzo how much of their gate money is from spectators ...... chances are the answer wouldn't buy my beer for the weekend ........ :beer I do agree though .... if you're gonna have rules, you need to abide by them. What's the use of having them if you're gonna do nothing to inforce 'em ?? o No:
What Casey said is 100% correct. I did not use the McDonald analogy incorrectly, Dan and Bob have repeatedly said it is a drivers race, if folks want to show they can show.........and they do.
:laugh: :laugh: True enough Joel, we are talking about a lot of beer. I am glad you folks in the F.A.S.T group adopted the P/S rules for F/S, it makes it consistent at the events. I think if a guy is going to have a F.A.S.T. race he ought to use your guys rules for that class also, same same.
Relax guys, I'm not trying to make anyone mad. :beer Just ask the FAST guys or Gonzo how much profit they made. I did say "for a race to be succesful," which I meant as having a profit. If you just rely on racers to pay for everything, then, typically, you won't make any, or very much, profit. If you get the crowd to show, then you'll have a much larger profit (McDonald's is ALL about profit and not about the cooks (racers), so, I respectfully dissagree in using it as an analogy :beer ). I'm not trying to make any money, I'd just like to break even. I have a LOT of money tied up in this Event, and to at least break even, it takes profit. To do that, I'm going to either have to have at least 100 racers show, or get the crowd count up (I'm trying to do both :Brow: ). I know all of the other Events go through the same thing. Do you think that NHRA Stock or Super Stock would exist if it weren't for the Professional categories drawing the crowd? That's all I'm trying to say. :beer If I can get the crowd to show up, I'll make more money, which means that I'll have much larger payouts for the racers next year, which will draw more cars next year, which should make the crowd get larger too. It's a circle that I need to get started to make this a huge Event with lots of cars, all racing headsup, on hard tires!!! :3gears: :TU: That's what I'm after. Wouldn't it be great if the 32 or 64 quickest cars of the Event got paid, anywhere from $50 to $500 to qualify? It'd help pay travel expenses and make it a little easier on the pocket book. Does the PSMCDR pay any money? Or does the profit go into the promoter's pocket? :TU: :laugh: Wayne
Not mad at all but we took a left turn somewhere...... Regarding the crowd at Stanton, the track operators commented that last year and the year before P/S had more spectators than the NSCA event held there the previous week. Regarding payout, I'm on my second P/S car in seven years, working on a third, all for a race where I win nothing. However, the Vette was pictured in all the event articles and the small block shoot out article and was a consistent extra on American Musclcar. The Merc has been in one magazine, the engine dyno article in another, mentioned often in three other mags with pics, and used heavily on an American Muscle car episode (because the producer remembered me from P/S). My '57 Chev, or the Willys never were in anything from any event. Dan and Bob can keep any payout. I'll take the recognition for the hard work over $50 any day!
Well put, Brian. I also am not looking for money from this. Are you kidding? These cars are F'in expensive to build, expensive to maintain, etc. But if that's what it takes to run an event in Tulsa, and our "notorious" cars help bring some of that in, be it spectators or guys with maxed out credit cards to Jegs and Summit under their hoods, no problem here. 2/3 with the rules he has, it's fun to blow some of these car show/cruise cars away. Whatever it takes to lure them out onto the strip, fine. They'll all be faster next year, but I bet they won't be spending their money at Jegs or Summit. That works for me.
Gate Money???!! I get NO gate money. Zero. Plus all you FAST guys wanna get in free anyway :rant: :laugh: I'm not interested in gate money anyway. I want the events to be successful so there can be more of them. I have spent ALOTof money on this event to see of there can be a new yearly race series dedicated to YOU guys. .....And me If I can get out of the 12's :boring: So right now if you have 12.6 or 12 to 1 compression, thats the LEAST of my concerns. Come down and have fun, lets get it rolling, you can argue later.. If you insist. :sleep: If Englishtown views the events as winners then they will take the ball and run with it. And money for promotion will not be an issue. Here at E-town you cannot rent the track unless you have an extra 30K laying around that you wanna blow. So it has to be done the hard way.....by word of mouth. Which is fine by me. ----------------------------------------- Since I'm on the soapbox.........The idea of giving money purses in my opinion is an VERY bad idea. Despite that fact that many of you have awesome cars and are great drivers and may have won a few races.......as stated before ...the pond your swimming in is very small. You want to get rid of the little guy? The guy Me, Wayne and everybody else is begging to come down and race their car? Well then start offering money, and that guy will dissappear into thin air. PLEASE don't ruin a fun day at the track, by throwing money around. It won't work. It will turn the FAST F/S thing into a gamblers / bracket race.......and soon nobody will be going or watching. :spank: IMHO
I don't do it for money either, that's why I drove all the way to Lebanon Valley to race, but, since I'm putting on a race, I HAVE to at least break even, and that takes money. I know that racers never actually make any money at this, but my line of thinking is, if I offer money to the top X amount of qualifers, it will get some out of towners to show up and race. It's different here in Oklahoma. I know a LOT of guys with cars, and within a 120 mile radius of me, I bet there's less than 10 guys that have muscle cars, with exhaust manifolds on them, that are willing to race them. The rest of the guys with muscle cars, that actually like to race, already have at least headers and a different intake on them. I don't see how offering money is going to get rid of the little guy, in 2/3 racing? The little guy still has a close race to race in, so it's not a bracket race :sleep: , and the quick guys, that have spent a lot of money to go quick, at least get something to help cover expenses. It seems like a win/win situation to me. o No: :beer How is it any different than offering $1,000 to the first guy into the 10's? Did Wayne Neslon do it for the 2K he's won? Of course not, he'd have done it for free, it was just an added bonus. :beer (I didn't see him turning it down, though!) :laugh: Wayne
I think the $$$$ offer to the winner applies to the Quick eight or ladder formats, not the match race part. Nothing wrong with charging an entry fee, maybe consider refunding it to the 2/3 winners? Year one gave out $50 gift certificates to the match race winners, and I think all who made the quick eights in both classes. Last time I won one of those it only cost me $200 to take advantage of that "free" $50. (Who can only order anything for $50 from Year One ) :laugh: :laugh: I think you're both on the money in expanding the race to another area and another group of racers. I tried to get Dick Miller to consider the 2/3 format for the King of the Hill at his Olds National meet at Norwalk this year. They have a bracket, give out prize money, and the same two guys win it every other year. Some of the serious Olds Racers are trying to get OCA (Olds Club Of America) to add racing to their events or at least get some of the racers to go back to OCA. It fell on deaf ears. I think there's room for an expansion like this, and applaud your efforts to think out of the box a little.
"The rest of the guys with muscle cars, that actually like to race, already have at least headers and a different intake on them" Yeah thats the biggest problem, but car show guys also like to use that as an excuse as to why they can't race. This year I have a class for "totally bogus" cars that have headers and edelbrock intakes and the like, they can run as well. When I tell the car show guy that they can still run if they want even with headers........They usually come up with a dentist appointment as backup ---------------------------------- I have no problem with anybody elses races or formats, I think it all helps expand the SMALL piece of the pie. The money thing is contrary to the point of the idea of Factory / Pure Stock racing. IMHO. For other type of events fine. As far as offsetting the cost of entry in FAST?? I am not convinced. It took $50K+ to build your FAST car and now you want to get in free? have your tolls paid?? or get $50 for showing up??.... Not sure about that. Cost the same for guys who don't come close to winning, should they get in free too?? Maybe everyone runs for free!!! That would be great, but unless you are related to Jungle Pam, it aint gonna happen at a name track. If the participants want to set up their OWN gamblers race then, whats to stop anyone. I just think the idea of starting to give out purses is a bad one. --------------------------- Again I don't have any problem with the way any one runs their events, the more the merrier. If you wanna come down and have some fun , meet some cool people, (most in this SMALL sport are extremely nice guys), drink some beer afterwards, and shoot the breeze... then great ....come down.....
I'm her long-lost, red-headed step child. Really. :laugh: I think it's always cool to win money. Maybe it's because I'm a poor, red-headed step child, but winning $50 means something to me -- even if I've got $50k into my car. But the absence of prize money ain't gonna keep me away, either. I'm more worried about any Pure Stockers who might choose not to attend a nearby musclecar race just because some of the cars there will have headers or aftermarket intake. I don't think headers are contageous, so what are they afraid of? I'm all for any event which enlarges our circle of friends. :Smarty:
True, headers are not contageous. But it also can be asked......why are you afraid of manifolds? Simple swap and you could take part at Stanton. I believe you come to watch anyway. o No:
