Looking for hyd. roller for my 73 455. Been on TA's sight and can not find one. They seam to be solid rollers. Where do I shop for hyd. roller cam ?
My cam core came from TA and was then sent to Comp Cams to be ground the desired specs. Give TA a call and they can explain what they have available.
They typically only carry 1 Hyd roller cam grind for the 455, which is the rollerized version of the 413. I have used it, good cam, rpm limited to 5800 with Morel lifters in my experience. I have used it twice. Morels are what TA sells as their 1412 lifter for $390. Hyd roller lifters have been an issue of late, Morel is having QC issues. Most sets work, some don't.. that has been my experience with them. I have built/dynoed 15 motors now with HYD rollers.. 9 have been trouble and noise free 4 have had noise issues 1 had a lifter body stick fully depressed. And one set that would not rev past 5400 on a very mild lobe cam, with 130/365 valve spring pressures. All problems are related to lifter body/plunger sizing issues. Either they don't hold the tolerance tight enough, or QC does not catch the bad ones. I have sold another 4-5 sets of these lifters, 1 set that I know of had an issue. More than likely, you can go with the $390 lifters.. The milder the cam lobe design, the more likely your going to get away with that lifter. So low lift, long duration cams are better suited to the inexpensive lifter. I know for sure that all of my new/current engine customers will be informed of the recent issue, and given the choice. My better lifter is $695.00 but worth it, IMHO. I will certainly have a set of the better lifters on hand at the dyno session, for any customer who opts for the less expensive ones. A second dyno session costs more than the upgraded lifters, and I can switch them pretty quickly on the dyno. Should be able to utilize somewhat more aggressive cam lobes now without the rpm issues. Speaking of that, I have 5 dyno tested grinds now.. for various applications. Just an FYI.. JW
jim what make is your better lifter? i have the morel lifter with the 413 roller cam from TA and have experienced top end problems at the track ..
Yes, although I do count yours as one of the "noisy" ones, since you did mention there was some valvetrain noise, that adjustment would not eliminate. I have built several engines that I have dynoed, and installed in the car, and they have been dead quiet. In fact, most of them.. but it's not 100%, and buyers should have all the information to make the most informed choice. This is a manufacturing thing, not a wear issue, so you should be fine with what you have. I don't anticipate them to degrade and cause issues down the road. The only reason to change them is that the new lifters should eliminate any ticking noises present. JW
I spoke with Mike at TA this morning, in regard to this issue. He reports a very low rate of reports of any issue with the Morel lifters, and TA sells a lot more of them than I do, so keep that in mind. JW
What type and weight of oil are you using with the Morels? How much preload? What weight and type of oil are you using Larry?
I have used several sets of these and have not had any issue, for the ones that Mike carrys they are rated up to about 400lbs over the nose but I have run them up to 420lbs over the nose, Morel does make a hyd roller for higher pressures but I haven't yet used them but I am sure Mike has. When I talked to a few of the companys that sell these and also have full engine shops ie: Chris Strub and John Callies stress NOT use light weight oil or synthetic, Morel reccomends 15w40 or 10w40 Dino oil. Here is the installation and adjustment sheet. Installing and Adjusting Morel Hydraulic Lifters: 1. Do not wash in any solvent. Wipe the parts off with a lint free towel. 2. Use 10W30 oil and lube the O.D. of the body and wheel. 3. Make sure the lifter-to-bore clearance on cast iron blocks is: .0015” - .0017”. On aluminum blocks that oil the lifter (LS Series), the clearance is: .0012” - .0014”. Both of these measurements are at 70 Deg F. The aluminum block will have a higher rate of expansion and that is why the clearance is tighter. Adjusting the Zero-lash setting of the Lifter: 1. I always like using the firing order to set the valves. Put the engine on #1 cylinder. 2. What we want is the int. and exh. to be on the base circle of the camshaft. 3. Adjust the rocker until the push rod just starts to get tight while taking the pushrod and rolling it between your thumb and finger. Once you feel drag, this is what we call Zero-lash. 4. You are now ready to tighten down on the adjuster using the following method: a. It is important to know the thread pitch, in threads per inch, of the adjuster nut, because one complete turn of the nut will move a distance of one complete thread. Therefore, verify the thread pitch of the adjuster nut, because racing rocker manufacturers use different nut sizes and thread pitches. b. If your adjuster nut is 7/16 x 20 threads per inch, then divide 1 inch by 20 threads per inch. One complete turn down on a 7/16 by 20 adjuster nut will move .050". c. Next, divide .050" divide by 4 to calculate the distance for a quarter-turn of the adjuster nut (.050" / 4 = .0125"). d. For a 3/8 x 24 adjuster nut, the calculations are: 1" / 24 TPI = .042" per full turn and .042" / 4 = .0105" per quarter-turn. e. Use the chart below to determine how many quarter-turns to tighten the adjuster nut after Zero-lash: Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025" Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035" Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050" 5. Repeat these adjustments for each cylinder running through the firing order. Installation note!!! Oil not Lithium Grease for lifter pre-lube!!!
Interesting.. Any links/documentation on that recommendation? The instruction sheet clearly says 10w-30, and the boxes have this sticker on them.. That would lead one to believe that they want thinner oil used, not thicker. In any event, I will report back with the results of the new lifters.. JW
Your sticker is pulled off and I can not see any part #s, did you get those through Mike. Do you have any pics of the wheels to see what retains the axles?
OK, I think I got it figured out. Those are a PBM/Erson SL540 lifter from Morel MP#5333. They box there lifters, 5W40 is for the High rev lifters not these one's. Someone has mislabeled that box. Do you mind posting pic's of your Johnson lifters? I am interested in the Axle part of the lifter.
Your close.. Right distributor, wrong PN.. :Brow: But it is the Street Performance series Morel lifter. Not the high rev series. Exact same lifter as the 5333. PBM/ERSON only sticks their PN sticker on the boxes.. the lifters are boxed at Morel. Never much paid attention to that sticker, I run Joe Gibbs BR30 in all my motors at startup, and then recommend 10-30 HR-2 for use afterward, so I don't get near any 40wt oil typically. After reading a few of the Chris Straub posts on various websites, it appears that using up to 15w-40 oil seems to quiet "ticking issues", but that is not my problem here.. I have a set that won't rev, due to excessive piston/body clearance. I spoke with the tech director at Johnson today, to ask if I could get .002/3 oversize lifters, as requested by a board member, and asked about oil.. he recommends 5W30 as the "perfect" oil for their lifter operation. Everyone wants to put thick oil to correct the bleed issue, but the issue actually is refill rate, you won't "fix" the clearance issue at high rpm with thicker oil. And higher viscosity oil "fills" slower. We also had a very enlightening conversation on the issue of Hydraulic roller lifters, and he had some specific questions about the 455 Buick. Here's that picture, and yes, they are fully shrouded.. :eek2: Rated for up to 185/535 pound spring loads, and up to 7500 rpm operation. I have taken the morels to 6300, with particular cam grinds, but the issue is consistency. The grind I have now has a slower ramp rate than the 6300 rpm cam. Now the jury is still out here.. final fitting and testing of the first set is going to happen in the next couple weeks, I just mentioned this because this morel issue just cropped up, and in my discussion with the guy at Johnson, he mentioned that the issue has just shown up in the last 12 months or so. When I give advice, I try to add the latest information that I have on the subject.. and that is so that your aware of what I know, not to badmouth any product out there, or to take business from anyone. My main business is not selling parts, it's building engines, and I need products that work all the time. This current lifter fiasco will cost me about 1K in lost time and dyno expenses. JW
When I put in my roller in a couple,years back I had what sounded like 1 lifter that would not pump,up right away when using the last of my old high zink 15W-40 Rotella. Switched to 10W-30 VR1 and never heard another tick from them warm or cold.
