Aftermarket iron 455 Buick block - Interest?

The way I see it,its getting more difficult to find bocks every year,If this doesn't happen in the future and your only choice is ta's alum. block how many do you think are going stay with buick? Then the market that exsits now,starts to dry up. On the other hand,this iron block goes into production you not only keep that market alive you increase your sale of all other performance parts and R&D.I know its easer said when its someone else's money,however it surely seems it would be more lucrative, and less risky.

 

They are actually very nice, but thanks for the heads up :TU:

 

I just went through and read this thread from the beginning . . .

Jim hit this on the head. People out there are looking for reliability *period. Stock iron components can only handle so much. Once you reach about the 700 HP range (give or take), the stock iron block just can't hold up (I'll probably get flamed for this). Heavy duty iron blocks are probably the most feasible idea if someone is looking to produce another block, with the few (compared to other brands) Buick people out there.

As Mike said, we have a limited market share. If I were looking for aluminum, I'd go to TA, regardless if there was another vendor out there producing blocks. They have a standing reputation and have put the time and effort into producing outstanding pieces. They don't offer a heavy duty iron block, so I'd have to shop elsewhere. *scour the junkyards and pray I find a decent stock one* Iron isn't something they've tackled (in blocks), and I think it's a good idea for the more "budget minded" people out there. If Tri-Shield and TA jumped on-board, I would definitely see this endeavor happening.

As for Edelbrock, well, they just don't get my vote for being outstanding. Their vintage Buick intakes are great. The "new" B4B isn't exactly a great piece; generally speaking, it's just a re-badged "Performer". What they should have done (as stated before), is produce a "Performer RPM (air gap)" intake. Sure, their cylinder heads are cheaper; look at the size of the company. They can afford to produce something without deposits on materials and machining. They went with Chevy-style rocker arms to reduce their cost. They work, but I just feel it strays from the Buick brand.

As far as getting deposits on anything, well, I just don't see that happening. Since the whole Bulldog fiasco, you'd be hard pressed to find 50-75 people to lay down some serious money to produce new blocks. People got burned (and burned bad) on that deal, so it makes everyone skittish about forking over money without anything to show for it.

The Buick community would love to have HD Iron blocks, but someone is going to have to do an immense amount of R&D, and be able to afford the endeavor without deposits. You'll need a serious investor on that deal. It was said before, "If you build it, they will come." The Buick community could use an affordable, heavy duty, stock replacement block for the average builder; and by the way it looks, we are getting closer. I suggest whoever is heading up the deal should talk to the biggest names in Buick performance builds; i.e. TA Performance, Tri-Shield Performance, etc.

It's also interesting to note . . . Buick cast some 4-bolt main blocks back in the heyday . . . but the program was canceled. I'm not exactly sure of the reason, but someone here knows.

You asked for our opinions, and we've given them; but everyone knows, "opinions are like @$$holes, everyone's got one".

Good luck, and Godspeed! :TU:

P.S. We (the Buick community) are not too fond of Chinese parts. Honestly speaking, their forgings are inferior to American ones. Ever hear of Chinese spindles? I'm sure someone will fill you in if you haven't.

 

P.S. We (the Buick community) are not too fond of Chinese parts. Honestly speaking, their forgings are inferior to American ones. Ever hear of Chinese spindles? I'm sure someone will fill you in if you haven't.

This being an open forum we are all, presumably, entitled to our opinions and questions. So heres my question; Which block is "superior" to the other...these Chinese blocks that the Pontiac guys are dominating and "hurtin' peoples feelings" at the track with or a 40 year old American casting? One in which we have to concern ourselves with the core shift issue apart from the thin casting material issue? Has anyone revisited that core shift thread lately? It is a very good read and makes one of these blocks a potentially ( if this thing happens) prudent performance investment.

Regards,

455nGLIDE<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

 

Who said anything about the blocks being Chinese? I thought those comments came about in the SCAT crankshaft posts, not the iron block discussion. I have yet to see a forged steel block.

Devon

 

Who said anything about the blocks being Chinese? I thought those comments came about in the SCAT crankshaft comments, not the iron block discussion. I have yet to see a forged steel block.

Devon

:error:I did by mistake.:error:..and I've yet to see a forged steel block myself. My questions are still valid though...especially after reading the Understanding Core Shift thread....but hey I could be wrong about that too,right?

Regards,

455nGLIDE<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

 

C'mon guys . . . I'm not trying to start an argument.

If you want to compare something, compare apples to apples. Don't compare an aftermarket Pontiac casting to a stock 40 year old Buick one. I would hope improvements were made over those 40 years in both the casting process and design. I'll have to read up on the IA blocks improvements over the stock Poncho ones . . .

The whole spindle deal is about the quality of the steel/iron used. I'm just stating that typically American castings use virgin materials that haven't been melted down over and over multiple times like Chinese ones. At least that's the way it used to be . . . not so sure anymore?

 

No, you are certainly right about that, no doubt! The limitations of the Buick block is well understood. Those of us pushing the envelope have always had those burdens. Just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Devon

 

John, you don't have to worry about an argument, I think.

I agree wholeheartedly that an endeavor like this, especially with what we know now vs then is a HUGE advantage design-wise and manufacturing-wise if done right. The "done right" part has been the focus of my poking and prodding from the beginning of this topic.

"Done Right" down to marketing and whatever business plan the manufacturers and suppliers can muster is what counts. We're all seeing "Done Right" once right now in aluminum and we've all seen "Done Wrong" in iron.

Devon

 

Agreed. We've seen the limitations over time, and thankfully we've learned the flaws. Just another step towards correcting all the issues.

 

Dang, hot topics are so hard to respond to . . . you try to type fast, then you forget something, go back and edit it, and by the time you edit the post, someone's already replied, and you wish it would've shown up in your quote.

Editing much?! :laugh:

But yeah, I whole-heartedly agree Devon.

 

If you want to compare something, compare apples to apples. Don't compare an aftermarket Pontiac casting to a stock 40 year old Buick one.

You know...you are right. Didnt mean to back hand our beloved 455's like that guys, and I am building one too right now. I am just hopefull this aftermarket block thing works out like alot of guys out there...and DaWilcat: Skepticism is indeed the key to certainty.

Best Regards Gents.:beers2:,

455nGLIDE

 

All the time, messes me up more than you, I'll bet! :grin:

Devon

 

It's good to find some common ground and not feel the need for ongoing useless squabble. Glad we all can all agree! :TU:

Oh, and Devon, trust me, I've been doing my fair share of editing lately! :grin:

So, when can I order my new HD Iron block? :laugh:

 

While I'm not in the market for one now, I hope you can order one soon, and that it's done right...in all the aspects I've been harping about.

Devon

 

Well, I was joking . . . sort of. It'd be nice to have one, but at the rate I'm spending money on other things, and the build level I'm shooting for, I don't think I'll need the extra strength.

Holley-mount B4B's, vintage Keystone Kustomags, and Kenne Bell aluminum valve covers are expensive! I'm sure the Super Scavengers won't be cheap either . . .

 

I understand, but I wasn't joking when I wrote about the project needing to be done right. I hope folks won't see me as some brand-loyal nay sayer.

Because of my enthusiasm and dedication to all of this, I will continue to say what I think in all regards because I care about this. If I see BS I'll call it, and if I see Success I'll call it too.

Devon

 

Me too!!.

 

I would think TA is uniquely positioned to take this ball and run with it

1) they have already just gone through the time consuming and costly procedure to re-engineer the old block into a new one, eliminating weak links uncovered over 40 years of use. The blueprints from the aluminum block project could surely catipult a Cast Iron project months ahead of starting from a clean sheet of paper.

2) They would be uniquely positioned as the only supplier of aftermarket blocks , either Alum or CI. It wouldn't be "buy TA Alum. or buy elsewhere". If another supplier produces it and someone who might of bought Alum. buys the Iron one instead, it eats into their return on investment already put into the alum. block and waiting on sales to recoup - producing it themselves not only drives all block revenue back to them but helps spread the development load across two offerings

3) we trust them


Obviously this would drive revenue through ancilliary sales of associated Items like cranks, cams, heads, as well as the smaller items like bearings, gaskets, timing chains, etc that usually get purchased at time of rebuild right back to them.

I can forsee Iron block sales volumes being significantly higher than aluminum if guys can use everything they already have on their 500-600 HP motors (like heads/pistons/crank/timing cover) pay half the price of Alum. for a block, and add a power adder to considerably and SAFELY up their power level.

Heck, I would do it in a heartbeat ... er, TriShield waive ?

Seriously ... lets say, $3500 block + $1500 other parts, machine work, assy time, and dyno - thats 5K - Id drop my motor back off at JW's and have him turn my 550hp motor into a 850-950hp motor with a simple block change - and it can run all day on pump gas ??

Where's a shipping crate

 

I would be interested in a block. But 'm looking at several years down the road.
Completion is a good thing for the market.