I am a strong supporter of ARP fasteners and have spent many $$$ with them over the years. Bob Florine, a VP with them is a good friend that I see at the PRI shows on occassion. Most of my purchases were for use in small block Chevy oval track engines that were totally assembled with their fasteners. As Jim points out, a lot of Buick fans on the board are working out of their garages with a minimum of experience and equipment. We are just trying to share our years of dealing with the Buick engines strengths and weaknesses in hopes of saving folks some time and money. Doug Jones
If I could ever affors to have Jim build be a block-I'd let him,however he felt the he should. That being said, I believe the Saints will repeat!!!!!:TU:
Jim W. and I both agree that for engines making less than 600hp. stock main bolts will do the job. Above that number would require a main support with studs. The main webs in Buick 455 blocks are very thin, this keeps the weight down which help make it the lightest of the GM big block engines. The bad part of this of course is that it is the weak area where cracking can occurr without a main support.
All of this talk , and no one has thought of inviting Cheryl to Taco Bell??? ou: I'd be all over that, but brandy has this "thing" about dating outside of our marriage........ Sheryl I'd also trust you to give me the proper torque readings on my studs (no pun intended)...........:laugh:
Hey folks, I did not sit down and read each and every word in this thread but I will share some thoughts. Can a 455 Buick make 600 hp with stock main bolts? I will say, Yes. Would I spec an engine at that power level with main bolts, NO. Have I had a repeatability issue on main housing bores, yes. But with both main bolts and studs. Some blocks are worse than others. This is why I shared my information about ARP Ultra Torque lube. I have known Mike from ARP for 25 years now, which he has a lot of control over ARP. This man has spent a lot of time and money working on this product "Ultra Torque" to better the use of there main products, FASTENERS. Mike knows bolt and studs and I do believe what he tells me. So moving on. If your going to install studs in you block you MUST align hone the block. The main housing bores will change with the installation of studs. Sometimes you can install the studs and hone the mains because the bore typically gets tighter. I like this the best but it doesn't always work out. You also need to make sure that the #3 and #5 caps have enough movement in them so the thrust bearing and the rear seal can be adjusted into alignment. You may need to drill those holes out to 35/64"-.547". This will allow the movement needed. I see main studs as a plus "always", especially if your planing on doing the main line. If it's a typical rebuild and the main line checked out, leave the bolts or replace them with a new set of TA1122 bolts. If your building a higher hp engine, it's a no brain-er. As far as wind-age trays go, these blocks move around a bit and don't be surprised to find that tray laying in the pan. They do crack and will fall off the engine. Most of the time we leave them off. Stock type and mild builds we will install them. One reason I like main studs is that your not working the threads in the block. With a stud, you screw it in finger tight and the fine threaded end does all the work. There are also more threads per inch on the fine end which allows for more clamping, also the stud wont try and twist like a bolt will when being screwed into the block. In my opinion, if it's in the budget install the main studs. If anyone has more questions, please feel free to ring me up at the shop.
I have to agree with Jim on the fact that with studs the housing bore does not repeat as with bolts and the reason is the factory bolts have far more stretch than ARP studs. I also agree that most street performance engines don't need studs. What I don't like is a 40 year old fastener that I can't document the use they have seen. Now we have a delimma. I use studs from T/A in engines that will make over 550 lbs ft of torque but like Jim says every time you re-torque the studs you get a different reading on a dial bore gauge (Sunnen that measures to the tenth .0001). Without stiring up the what is proper clearance issue, my procedure is as follows. 1 The caps have to be cut square. 2 block threads chased 3 do not install studs with loctite, oil only. 4 use only ARP moly on the threads and both sides of the washers. 5 torque to 90 with a calibrated torque wrench, back off and retorqe two more times 6 align hone to the tight side of the spec 7 remove nuts and washers, re-lube and re-torque and re-check housing bore 8 what ever it tighened up re-hone 9 repeat procedure until you only get .0001 difference 10 I then clean the caps and housing bore on the block, install the bearings and check clearance. I get my cranks done at a specialty crank shop and he has my spec on the crank so somewhere between the tight side and as much as .0005 over the loose side I get the desired clearance. I won't get into the things you have to do to keep the housing bore on 1-4 the same as #5, that is the job of the guy doing the honing
Mike, Mike, Jim, Doug, Line Hone with tourqe plates on or not? Some blocks are easier some are not , just finished a battle with stock bolts which are not usually as much trouble!
I have been building BBB engines for 30 years. I use precision measuring equipment consisting of Sunnen bore gauges and set-up fixtures. I agree with Jim in that on many ocaisions I have run into problems of REPEAT measurements, especially on #2 and #4 mains when using ARP studs. I use ARP thread lube. It doesn't mean I can't get my clearances in where I want them but they don't always repeat. It's frustrating and requires more trial and fit before you feel comfortable. You are not going to see these differences with a $100.00 bore gauge set up in a vice or with plastigauge. If someone wants me to prove it, I can do that. No offense taken if you don't believe me but it is a fact. I am sure it varies from block to block but it does happen.
Sorry for the late reply buy i just got out of the hospital for shoulder replacement, must be all that main torqin' n checkin'. I don't have torque plates on the block while honing, I have installed them in the past to see if there was a difference and found none. On another note, I find some difference on the cylinder bores with main caps in place and a lot of difference on the bores with a girdle in place.
For anyone referencing this in the future I think ARP changed the chart that Jim originally linked too. Attached is what I think used to be there. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Resurrecting this topic for anyone interested. Earlier in this discussion some assumed the supplier of the main studs (ARP) was being questioned as being at fault for poor measurement repeatability. It seems that may not be the case, and that the Buick engine block is a potential root cause of the problem. Regarding the decision to use main cap studs vs. main cap bolts, please see: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=221289 Devon
I've align honed thousands of blocks, many Buicks included, and there is no real special trick to them. I use all Sunnen machinery and guages. Like any block, if you install main studs, make sure that they do not bind in the cap. On occasion, I do have to ream them or run an end mill down and clean up the spots where they bind. Sometimes the factory holes in the caps are not straight. Binding studs will lead to inconsistant bore readings when re-torquing. The studs should spin free when the cap is seated in place. The following causes 90% of all main bore problems after align-honing. --------------------------------------------------------------- Make sure as hell that the caps get side "face indexed" when they cut them. (I know of a few shops around here that still do not do this properly). This provides a 90 degree perpendicular surface to reference the cap off when removing material from the parting face. If this is not done, the thrust bearing will be skewed and will not be parallel to the thrust face. This WILL cause "stud-to-cap" binding problems as the caps are now crooked. Even if the bore is round, the cap, and now the bolt boss, are now binding to seat. If your caps are not machined on one side face or the other...this was not done. If you don't quite get what I'm saying, I can post a pic of a cap that has been cut and indexed..
Ok, The first thing is to file any burrs off that may affect set-up. Second, (pic 1-2) grind the side face using the mating surface as the reference. Now the side is perpendicular and will be a good surface to locate from on the grinder's clamp plate. Third (pic 3) Remove material from mating surface to allow for honing. Usually .003" on #'s 1-4 and .002" on #5. Fourth (pic 4) finished cap, ready to install and check stud clearance.
