I swapped in a power steering box from an 86 Monte Carlo to my 71 'Lark a couple years ago and I prefer the quicker ratio for easier driving. I would like to convert my 68 Riv to a faster ratio but am not sure if there is a simple way to do this. Has anyone on here done a similar conversion on a 66-68 Riv?
Is you Riv hard to steer? My car drives with 1 finger with almost no steering wheel pressure. Maybe you have another issue.
I think he wants to have less turns lock to lock. The Monte SS box is a great improvement. Someone here sent me a link to a company here in Missouri that can rebuild boxes and pumps so that you can use your old box and still have the improved features of the SS. I'll check and see if I can find it.
...Riv is easy to steer Stephen, but too many turns lock to lock....I prefer a more modern feel to my ride. Would be most appreciative if you can find out the contact details of the guy in Missouri that does the modifications John Thanks Bruce
The Riviera shares the same steering box with a Nova if you can believe it. They're positioned the same relative to the frame and not as on an A-body car. I don't see a lot of difference in the pictures between the 3 and part numbers differ, maybe, hopefully the Nova is fewer L-L. I'll bet you can get more definitive answer with some research but I think this will put you on the right course. Photos in order of appearance: 1. '68 Chevy II Nova 2. '68 Riviera 3. '87 Monte SS. All are from http://www.rockauto.com
I am very interested in this as I have been wanting to do the same thing. I wonder if the nova will work? So will the 86 monte ss box work on a riv too? Its cheap OPGI has one but its really pricey.
Not really questioning you because i do not know but is it possible that Rock Auto uses a generic photo? This should be interesting to the owners of the big cars
I believe all the Saginaw boxes through the mid-90's are identical on the exterior. They changed the input shaft in the 70's, then the hose connection type from flare to o-ring, and of course different applications have different ratios, stops, and T-bar settings. The T-bar setting is where you get your feel from. The IROC WITH FE2 suspension box and Monte Carlo SS box both have much higher T-bar settings which makes the steering feel much better.....it gets rid of that steer with your finger feel. They're also 12.7:1 ratio with 2.5 turns lock to lock. I went from a 12.7 Year One restoration box to the 12.7 IROC WITH FE2 box and love it. What us first gen Camaro guys do is get the mid-90's IROC WITH FE2 box from the parts store, the o-ring to flare inserts from Lee Manufacturing for the hose connections, and a steering coupler from a mid-80's Chevy truck. Fast ratio high effort steering for under $200. http://www.lee-powersteering.com/ also will rebuild a box to any specs you want. They have the inserts for under $20. The steering coupler is Dorman 31011. The box is Cardone 27-6550.
Is the IROC box a direct bolt in to the 68 Riv? and does it have to have internal stops removed as did the 86 Monte Carlo box I put into my Skylark?
The Riv. uses a larger box than the A-Body cars. The model is an "808". The older Caddy's had a variable ratio box starting in '67, up to about '76 is a bolt-in. Any FULL SIZE GM car starting in, I believe, '69 started using faster ratio boxes. These carried through until about '76. These are ALL a bolt-in swap. No hoses to change, use the originals. You may have to swap the pit-man arm.
If you pull up AGR Performance on Summit Racing, they spec the same box for a '68 Riv as they do for a first gen Camaro. To me, that says the box is physically the same and will bolt in. The Monte Carlo SS and IROC with FE2 suspension boxes are the same part number if you get one from Cardone (any parts store). Although the boxes were slightly different straight from GM, the remanufacturers make them so they cover a broader range. All you need are the little aluminum inserts from Lee and the steering coupler to make one work. Your pitman arm should go right on. Oh, and if you've got a tired old original pump there's a chance it won't put out enough pressure for the higher T-bar box. If you've bought a reman unit within the last 20 years though it should be OK. That's what I'm using. And fer chrissakes put power steering fluid in it not ATF. You can just get a regular pre-'77 fast ratio box that will go right in without the inserts and coupler. However, to me that isn't worth doing since it'll still be just as floaty feeling only now it'll be quick steering and floaty which I think is an even worse combination. The increased steering effort is what makes the later model box a great upgrade.
So I would like to do this upgrade, I would order the "Lee Power Steering Adapter Kit" Under their "Rebuild and misc" section of their website? Do you know the price of this kit? and the box you listed of coarse. By "high effort" steering you mean tighter right? Its more of a modern feel, not too tight?
The easiest and cheapest way to do it is just call up Lee Manufacturing and tell them you'd like the high and low pressure inserts to put a newer Saginaw box in an old car. They'll ask if you want the insert tool as well. You don't have to get it...a 1/4" bolt with a nut screwed part way on is OK. With the tool, the insert kit is still only about $20 shipped. They'll also ask if you want the coupler but they only offer the GM one which is about $75. The coupler is a Dorman 31011 and is cheapest at Rock Auto. It is the clamp that goes on the input shaft of the box and also comes with the rag joint and pins. The box would be a Cardone 27-6550 and Advance or Auto Zone ought to have them. It will be a remanufactured box with a lifetime warranty. There will be two boxes listed for an IROC or Monte Carlo....both are 12.7:1 ratio but the 6550 is the stiffer one used with the FE2 sport suspension or SS model respectively. The newer boxes use a metric thread and an o-ring seal. The Lee inserts simply drive down into the ports and convert them back into an inverted flare. The threads are close enough that your old hoses will still work and it's the flare that seals it anyway. By high effort, yes it is tighter feeling. It'll take maybe twice the effort by you to turn the wheel. This provides a lot better feedback and makes the car feel less darty especially when going to the faster ratio. It'll feel more like turning the wheel of a later model performance car instead of doing pinky parking. All three parts together should run right around $200 total before you get the core charge back if you turn in your old box.
Thanks for all the info, sounds like a good upgrade for relatively cheap. I wish I could try both boxes side by side to see if I like the SS or the normal one more. But now that I think about it, I have been driving without power steering so...doesn't really get much tighter than that haha.
I'm not so sure I would trust Summit as far as parts compatability. It wasn't that long ago that a young member here on the board was convinced a 8.5" Eaton posi unit was a bolt in for his 2nd generation Riviera because Summit told him it would fit. 69 & 70 Rivieras have a variable ratio steering box that will fit your 68, and there was a fast ratio steering box available in the Riviera from 66-70 as well, although I have never seen one. I have a 69 variable ratio box that will be rebuilt and installed in my 67 once I get some of the other things done on my never-ending "honeydo" list taken care of.....
'65-'74 GM ps boxes were all identical externally and the later models ones had different sized ports and input shafts, that's it. What varied was the pitman arm and internals. AGR makes one box with one set of stops and one pressure to cover all applications. The rebuilt boxes from the parts store have valving set up closer to what the stock application would have been but they do not try to replicate the stops. Monte Carlo and IROC technically had different stops but the Cardone box is the same part number for both because the effort was almost the same on them. I believe all of them just set the stops up to whatever was the widest angle so it'll fit more applications. One other note...if the Riv used the 808 box, that was originally for heavy duty pickups. Does the Riv use four mounting bolts or three? GM dropped the 800 series later on and the boxes were either 700 or 708 with one having a 70mm bore and the other being 80mm. The new fast ratio box we're talking about is the 700 box and was used in the following cars with the IROC FE2 and Monte Carlo SS having the highest effort. As you can see, the later model versions of the box were used in large cars so it should not be a concern using a newer box in an older B body. The reasoning may be that the pressure of the pumps was raised from around 950 to 1400 later on so the increase bore for more steering torque wasn't needed in light duty trucks and passenger cars...... '85-'96 Caprice, Monte Carlo, Buicks '92-'98 Grand Cherokee '82-'93 Camaro Now, if you're afraid that the 6550 box will be too hard to steer in your big car, there are plenty of other alternatives with fast ratio but lower efforts. It's definitely pleasant to steer in my Camaro but I replaced the pump a couple of years ago. By the way, my info comes from Jim Shea who is a retired steering engineer supervisor at Delphi Saginaw Steering Systems. He worked there for 38 years as an engineer and you can google "Jim Shea steering papers" to see all the stuff he's written. He has spreadsheets with ratios and steering efforts of practically every Saginaw box. He's also fairly active on the Team Camaro, Team Chevelle, and Corvette boards and helps out all the time with steering questions. http://www.camaros.net/forums/showpost.php?p=912544&postcount=3 http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231928 He says the package was a little bigger on the 08 boxes but that the mounting is identical. I don't know if that means that the input shaft will be in the exact same spot or not. Best thing to do may be to see if a parts store has one of each in stock and verify them by eye. I don't want to be responsible for someone getting one that doesn't fit directly.
Full size Buick's are H/Duty just for the weight. Yes, there are 4 mounting holes but only 3 are used. Tom T.
FWIW I sent a message to Jim Shea over on the Camaro board asking about the interchange between an old 708 box and a newer 700 box. He pops in every week or two so maybe I'll hear something back soon.
Here's the reply direct from Jim Shea. After receiving this I asked to clarify about using a late model 700 box specifically since they even used them in the mid-90's Roadmasters which weigh as much as a Riv. I also asked how radial tires affect it. "I think that the 700 and 708 gear boxes have the input and output shafts in exactly the same place. The 68 Riviera power gear was a very slow 17.5:1 ratio and had restricted pitman sweep of around 73 degrees. My best estimate is that a 700 fast ratio box may not generate sufficient assist to turn your roadwheels to full lock with the car stopped. (You may not consider this fact to be all that important.) Also, a 700 fast ratio box will most likely be a full travel box. This could cause your tires to rub at full lock unless you have steering stops in the front suspension." Jim
