Hi, a friend of mine has a 65 300 with 64 aluminum heads, a buick 4 barrel aluminum intake and a 600 carter. he is using a poston cam good for 25 Hp over stock. the car makes little to no power. He has a 273 rear gear and just did a turbo 350 conversion in hopes that the powerglide was killing his power. A compression test yielded 110 psi in the cylinders which seems low. If he used low compression pistons in the car, would that kill his power? he can't barely break the tires loose. the thing is pathetic!! any ideas would be appreciated! thanks Bob
1964 heads are all the same, but the pistons aren't. 4bbl heads had an ever so slight dish, the 2bbl ones a crater. 2bbls have 8.00:1 c/r, the 4bbls 10.50:1. I can see any cam over a stocker in the 2bbl engine, killing any and all performance. The stock 4bbl cam has 285 overall degrees, but...that is measured .020 past opening/closing points as quieting ramps, which equates to 20 degrees on either side of opening/closing points, so the overall timing would read 245 degrees. 300 heads aren't big on overall flow ratings, and if the valves have the wickerbill cut off as in "undercutting", the direction the mixture is put in the chamber is completely ruined. If you insist on running a Carter/EgoBroke carb, then the one to use is the 625 cfm AVS, NOT the AFB. I'd 600 Holley it myself, LIST 1850-3 or better. Also, disable the ignition, open the carb all the way up, and take another compression test. If the carb was closed for the first compression test, the numbers would be lower, because the engine can't pull any air into the chambers during the test. If you want a better set of heads, with bigger ports and valves, then go back to the later iron heads and change the rear gear ratio t 3.42 at least.
64 Skylark w/aluminum heads I have a 64 Skylark Convertible, 300 V-8 with aluminum heads and a T-10 4 speed. We completely rebuilt the engine and bored it 30 over, new cam & pistons but both OEM standard, balanced and blue printed, std aluminum intake and edelbrock 500 carb. Rear is an Auborn posi with Richmond 355 gears. I put 15" tires on Cragar mags. We hardened the valve seats and I run highest octane I can buy. It doesn't rev like a corvette, but I can burn the tires off and get second gear and even 3rd on a hot day.
Thanks, I guess his car is definately underpowered. We are gonna have to do some poking around to see why its a slouch. I think its the pistons myself. We'll try another compression test to start.
Check the fuel pump eccentric. My brother in law's built 300 never ran like it should have. Disassembly revealed a nearly round fuel pump eccentric. (How he kept from blowing holes in the pistons, I'll never know...) Jason
Thanks...it's not in the works yet...I still have to clean 20yrs worth of crud off of it before I start working on it. Found it in a barn a couple of weeks ago...it's a 70 vert with PW and 6 way seats. Guy bought it 20yrs ago, had it repainted and never finished putting it back together. Has an entire trunk full of NOS parts I haven't even dug through yet. Jason
Aluminum 300 engines It may be helpful for you to contact Sean Etson. His email is listed in the members site. I think it's BuickPhysco, but don't quote me on that on. Sean runs a 12-second '64 Skylark with a 300 that has aluminum heads and a variety of aftermarket parts. He does have a single-plane intake that he adapted from a Buick 215 engine, which undoubtedly is the most desirable thing for heating up the '64 300.
And, my 215 block'd, Holley analog EFI 670 cfm Pro-Jected, 300 aluminum headed 298 cu/in engine in my daily driver Vega runs 12.26 @ 106 mph while delivering 20 mpg in town and 24 on the road. The point is, unless you are a person whom knows what to do to maintain and modify the heads/engine correctly once itn is changed to full-on hot-rod, and have the funds for those mods, are really into it, then a better set of heads and intake system for the original poster's friend would be the cast iron heads/intake setup. And, the only manifold for a 215 even remotely close to considering for adapting to a 300 incher would be a Huffaker, extremely rare intake manifold (I have two), Edelbrock Performer is mediocre. Now if one had an unlimited budget, then Wildcat block, heads, intake would be the clear choice.
I-Man, Check out the D&D Fabrications site. They are offering both the Harcourt single plane and 4x2 Weber intakes for the 215. Should you ever decide to part with one of those Huffakers...you have my email address. Pinhead
Info from Dan Jones! From: "Jones, Daniel C" Subject: Buick 215 and Buick 300 flow bench test results Below is the copy of a post I made to another forum. If you skip the first part about the Ford heads, you'll see some flow bench results for Buick 215 and 300 heads. Dan Jones Recently, I've had several sets of cylinder heads on the flow bench and thought I'd share my results with the list. The specific heads flowed were: Ford Motorsport A3 - essentially unported Ford Motorsport C302 - ported Ford Motorsport C302B - ported Gurney Weslake Windsor - unported (completely stock) Buick 215 - home ported Buick 300 - unported (stock rebuild) The heads were flowed on two separate days at Stiegemeyer Racing Heads in St. Charles, Missouri. The bench is a SuperFlow 600 and the tests were conducted at a 28" pressure drop. A 4.155" diameter tube was used to simulate the cylinder bore (a smaller tube was used on the Buick heads). The inlet was radiused using a piece of clay around the intake port and no pipe was used on the exhaust. When Dave Williams had a pair of iron 4V Cleveland heads tested on Jim Kuntz's flow bench, the operator mentioned that naked 4V Cleveland intake ports usually flow 20-30 CFM less than a port with manifold. I'm also told an exhaust port with pipe picks up a similar amount. At the first session, we flowed the C302's and the Buick 300. At the second session, we flowed the A3's, Gurney-Weslake and Buick 215. All flow figures below are in cubic feet per minute (CFM). When reviewing the data, keep in mind the heads had dissimilar amounts of porting and prep work (details included below). Valve C302 C302 C302B C302B C302B A3 A3 Lift Intake Exhaust Intake Exhaust Exhaust Intake Exhaust (inch) 2.15" 1.65" 2.19" 1.65" 1.65" 2.19" 1.71" Tulip Std (from C302) 0.025 --- --- --- --- --- 33 33 0.050 063 047 051 --- 047 48 45 0.100 096 073 081 --- 073 84 67 0.150 125 102 120 --- 111 119 86 0.200 160 123 157 131 124 154 108 0.250 --- --- --- --- --- 187 128 0.300 218 155 223 180 156 211 142 0.400 274 191 266 210 188 257 169 0.500 313 220 306 223 206 299 191 0.600 318 234 331 228 215 327 214 0.650 --- 241 --- 230 220 --- --- 0.700 --- 242 --- --- 222 309 226 0.800 --- --- --- --- --- --- 234 Both sets of C302 cylinder heads have had some work done to them. The bowls were enlarged and blended. The ports were altered but not hogged out and remain fairly small. My snap gauges finally showed up so I'll measure the port cross-sectional areas when I get the chance. The C302B's, in particular, have a fairly small minimum throat area on the exhaust side. My guess is they were originally set up for a restrictor plate engine. The C302B's were also fitted with titanium tulip exhaust valves. We swapped a standard exhaust valve from the C302 head to see how it compared to the tulip valve in the C302B. Note that the valve was simply dropped in the port and flowed, no valve job was done. Stiegemeyer says the tulip shape works even better on heads with large seat areas but makes the valve heavier. That's not a problem with titanium but I'm planning on swapping to stainless steel instead. Also, an intake valve in one of the heads was given a quick back-cut as he didn't like the shape. I forgot to note which set it was from so I'll need to disassemble them to know for sure. Stiegemeyer says he has had a problem with Del West titanium valves pulling the heads off the stems (under monster spring pressure) but hasn't had any trouble with other brands. He did not like the Teflon valve seals (the white plastic type with a top ring and a bottom band) that were on the heads as they do not allow enough oil through for extended use. He says those seals will not only wipe out the guides but will prematurely wear the valve stems as well. He pulled out another seal type (blue with dual bands, viton I think) that he uses now. The A3's were not ported, though some work was done to blend in the larger valves. The A3's come with larger ports than the C302's and do not require porting like the C302's to make good flow numbers, though they would certainly benefit from porting. My expectation was the unported A3's would flow about the same as the ported C302's. However, I wasn't sure this pair would live up to that expectation. Dad did the valve job on the A3 heads while I was working on several cars for the family. When I went to inspect his handiwork, it was not what I was expecting. It turns out the seats and throats on the A3's were sized for valves smaller than 4V-sized parts I had bought. To be able to use the existing seats, Dad had to make some compromises. Also, no top-cut was used. I expected to take a hit for this and probably come in less than the C302's. Considering this, the stock A3's did well, though I expect there is quite a bit more flow left in them that an experienced head porter could find. By way of comparison, I have some flow data on some old NASCAR racing heads that went through a shop that Chip Barret-Smith worked at. He said the bench they use posts numbers that are a little more conservative than what a Superflow reads. Bud Moore Wood Bros Davis Racing A3 C302 Lift C302 canted Yates head Yates head unported? unported ----- 0.050 33.10 30.10 29.30 32.10 30.4 0.100 69.10 66.10 63.60 67.80 66.2 0.150 115.4 104.6 102.1 105.4 97.4 0.200 152.2 144.7 138.9 142.2 129 0.300 217.5 220.8 214.1 217.5 189 0.400 267.7 277.7 277.7 274.4 229 0.500 306.2 314.5 324.6 311.2 246 0.600 332.9 311.2 326.2 329.6 251 0.700 --- --- --- --- --- 0.800 --- --- --- --- --- Exhaust Air Flow Bud Moore Wood Bros Davis Racing A3 C302 Lift C3 canted Yates head Yates head unported? unported ----- 0.050 21.40 21.40 23.90 23.90 28.3 0.100 50.20 46.00 51.00 51.90 57.7 0.150 78.60 72.80 77.80 80.30 76.8 0.200 108.7 95.40 100.4 97.00 93.9 0.300 142.2 138.9 135.5 125.5 108 0.400 202.4 179.0 187.4 153.9 116.6 0.500 219.2 214.1 212.5 184.0 119.4 0.600 224.2 237.6 227.5 205.8 --- 0.700 234.2 249.3 230.9 224.2 --- 0.800 235.9 254.3 --- 234.2 --- Note: The Yates heads have 2.1" intakes and 1.6" exhausts. The C302 canted valve heads had 2.15" intakes and 1.65" exhausts. The A3 canted valve heads had 2.19" intakes and 1.71" exhausts. My notes say the A3 was unported on the intake but ported on the exhaust. After comparing the numbers with the results from my A3's, I'd guess they were not ported or had minimal work done. Stiegemeyer likes high flowing, moderate cross-sectional area, cylinder heads mated to high flowing single plane race intake manifolds (Roush/Ford Motorsport, Edelbrock Victor and the like). More than just the raw CFM of the heads, he was quite impressed with the velocity of the C302 and C302B heads and thought either pair would make for a killer street engine. Actually, the heads flowed a bit better than the numbers suggest as the lifts were actually lower than the reading due to the angle required by the test fixture (the lift gauge was at an angle to the valve). It might be worthwhile to pour some rubber molds of the ports and make a set of templates. Stiegemeyer usually starts flowing heads at 0.200" lift but Vizard's instructions for the cam selection software require low lift numbers, so I had him add a few low lift points. Stiegemeyer asked a few questions about the Pantera and wrote down some cam specs he thought would work well for what I wanted to do. The numbers were close to what I was expecting: single pattern, 260 degrees @ 0.050" on a 108 LSA, installed at 105 degrees with 0.645" lift if solid roller, or 0.600" lift if hydraulic roller. That was assuming the independent runner EFI intake. He would drop the duration by 10 degrees if a single four barrel. He said the 4" stroke crank would cause it to peak at around 6000 RPM and thought I could make better power with a 3.75" stroke crank shifting at 6800 RPM. He said I'd give up some torque but wouldn't miss it on street tires. He also thought I should go no larger than a 1 7/8" header. After seeing the flow velocity of the heads on the bench, he thought the lobe separation could be widened slightly to 109 degrees. In addition to the Ford Motorsport heads, I took along a stock rebuilt 1964 Buick 300 aluminum cylinder head and a home-ported 1962 Buick 215 aluminum cylinder head to put on the flow bench. I wasn't expecting the 300 head to flow very well but wanted to get a baseline to compare a ported set against. Given the tiny ports and valves (much smaller than a Windsor which is already on the small side), they actually flowed better than expected. Valve 1964 Buick 300 Ford 5.0L HO 1962 Buick 215 Lift aluminum heads cast iron aluminum heads (inch) Intake Exhaust Intake Exhaust Intake Exhaust 1.625" 1.312" 1.78" 1.45" 1.60" 1.48" 0.025 30 35 0.050 39 41 0.100 60 54 0.150 77 70 0.200 105 096 92 78 98 80 0.250 --- --- --- --- 114 94 0.300 135 108 130 95 129 105 0.400 142 115 141 102 138 123 0.500 149 115 155 106 137 129 0.600 154 116 158 105 --- 129 Same flow bench conditions as the C302's and A3's. The Buick 300 heads were fitted with stock size valves (1.625" intake and 1.312" exhaust) and had no porting done. The Buick 215's were home ported with larger (modified) Ford Y-block valves. A stock Buick 215 has very tiny ports and valves (1.500" intake and 1.313" exhaust). The home-ported 215 heads were fitted with a set of cut down Ford Y-block valves of 1.6" intake and 1.48" exhaust. These are by no means optimal sizes. They just happened to be a set of valves Dad had sitting around that looked like they could be modified (long enough to have new keeper grooves cut into them) to fit the Buick 215 heads on the existing seats. The pockets in the 215 heads were opened to accept the larger valves and the bowls were blended in. I wasn't sure how much material was in the ports so they were opened only slightly. Also, the valve guides were not narrowed and the valve job isn't anything tricky. I didn't base- line the flow on the stock heads but it is reasonable to assume that a stock 215 head would flow a fair bit less than a stock Buick 300 head which has a similar layout but larger ports (intake and exhaust) and valves (intake only, exhaust is same size as Buick 215). It appears the larger valves did a good job of picking up flow, especially on the exhaust side. A larger intake valve would provide a better intake-to-exhaust flow ratio. However, it appears to me the intake seats might have to be replaced to go with a 1.7" intake valve in the 215 heads. I think the Buick 300 heads will accept a 1.7" intake valve on the stock seats. For comparison, I've included flow numbers from a 5.0L Ford head from Fordmuscle.com. I had seen flow numbers that suggested the Buick 300 heads flowed as well as Ford 5.0L heads but given the smaller ports and valves, I really didn't believe them. I still plan to port the Buick 300 heads but was pleasantly surprised with the baseline numbers. Previous lore had also held that stock Buick 300 heads would flow as well as a as a radically ported set of 215s. The first part proved to be true. The second part is debatable. With a larger intake valve, my home-ported 215 heads would flow as well or better than stock 300 heads. Of course, if you are going to go to the effort of porting, starting with a set of Buick 300's would make sense, particularly on a stroker engine where the larger chambers yield better compression ratios for street engines. It was funny but I think Stiegemeyer got a bigger kick out of the little Buick heads than he did the much higher flowing high port Motorsport heads. We discussed that Buick/Rover aluminum V8 engine project briefly and he offered to weld up the combustion chambers and rough them in for $250. I might just take him up on that on one of the motors. The last heads up were a set of rare Gurney-Weslakes for a small block Ford Windsor. These are rare heads commissioned by Dan Gurney and designed by Harry Weslake. These heads were used in Indy and LeMans racing efforts and Gurney even offered a street package for small block Fords. More info on these heads can be found at: http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/fordv8/gurney/gurney.htm The heads tested belonged to a friend and when we pulled the valves out, it was apparent these heads were not going to live up to their potential. It's not because of anything wrong in the basic design but rather they didn't appear to have been finish-machined. There's a huge step at the short side radius that's sharp enough to cut your finger on. Bob said blending that area in would be worth a bunch of CFM and power. He guessed the intakes wouldn't flow over 225 CFM but that, with some work, they would pick up to 300+ CFM. The flow bench tells the tale. Same set up as before (28" H20 pressure drop, clayed inlet radius, no pipe on the exhaust): Valve Gurney-Weslake SBF Lift aluminum heads (inch) Intake Exhaust 2.02" 1.60" 0.025 23 35 0.050 35 45 0.100 67 64 0.150 102 80 0.200 133 93 0.250 160 104 0.300 179 113 0.400 202 134 0.500 202 145 0.600 --- --- These numbers are no better than a home-ported set of DOOE Windsor heads would provide. Bob said he could re-work the heads for $495 to flow much better. He also asked if they were for sale as he'd like a pair for himself. Stiegemeyer's shop had a wide range of cylinder heads waiting to be worked on, including the usual small and big block Chevy and Ford, 392 Chrysler hemi, Ford 3.8L V6 (max effort pieces supplied to a Ford V6 specialist), Fiero four cylinder (tiny ports) and even a set of A3 high ports (for a sprint car). While we were talking, Stiegemeyer pulled out the flow sheets on some iron 4V's that he did as a "budget deal". No port work was done but different valve margins were tested, along with the Roush-type port stuffers. I didn't get a copy of the sheets but they showed a stock iron 4V head pulling 294 CFM (which just happens to be the same number that Dave Williams got on a set of stock 4V Clevelands). With no porting but with a fancy valve job and the port stuffers, he made 331 CFM with higher velocity. For so little effort, he was pleased with the results and said the engine made very good power. I still have several other sets of heads (B351 high ports, Roush high ported iron 4V's, stock 4V's, Aussie 2V's, Rover V8, 427 and 428 FE Ford, etc.) that could be tested but, at $75 a pop, I think my curiosity will have to wait. Dan Jones
Whew, that was long winded, and not one word about the most important part of head flow, just where the air-fuel mixture is PLACED past the port/valve, into the cylinder/chamber, just the usual, same old "wow, what a great flow rate, aren't we just plain full-on drag race porting wizards" pat on their own back. Now, it doesn't matter if the flow rate is like the mighty Mississippi River if the mixture isn't directed into the correct places in the chamber/cylinder. And past giant sized ports that have no velocity, another very large screwup in a lot of heads is the cutting of the whickerbill off the face of the valve that aims the mixture to the right place in the whole scheme of things, called "undercutting". Doing all this hero worship giant sized porting/undercutting uselessness makes the head porter look like a hero, but the engine then doesn't get out of its own way until it reaches the rpm level where the rods poke out the engine case. As far as performance of this particular 300 engine, the later 1965 thru 1967 heads IS the right way to go if the engine isn't a dedicated full-on drag race engine. Mild, common sense porting cleanup and a good valve job, good springs is all these heads need to make an exellent street.mild strip daily driver go very well. Just how hard is that to understand?
The curious mind Greg (and Dan Jones); Thank you for that bit of information. It's enjoyable to see the enthusiasm of discovering new data that you did have before come to life. It seems there's a 215 revival going on which is also casting a bit of light on its "red-headed" big brother. Whether or not anything ever comes of our explorations, the intellectual exercise is exciting...in that strange Buick sort of way. I get the feeling that 215 and 300 Buick lovers were born a out of step with time. That hot rodding spirit reminds of the days before SBCs. Thanks for the inspiration. Don't ever relinquish the search of knowledge. Pinhead 64 US
You guys in Canada might keep an eye out for early, like 1964 and 1965 Skylarks with the 225 V6 engines, some were aluminum there, block, heads, intake manifold, very rare. They were offered in both cast iron and aluminum in Canada.
