Do you guys appreciate cars that are considered "survivors" of "barn finds" over restored vehicles? It seems sellers with highly distressed cars are marketing them as desirable "barn finds". Even desirable, unrestored cars will never be worth a 100 pt show car. The Gas Monkey Boss 429 sold at BJ comes to mind. In the end, buyers want shiney cars that are better than new. What do you think?
I like original, unrestored cars, but it all depends on the condition. A pile of junk is a pile of junk, period. Our Buicks are, basically, unrestored cosmetically. Mechanically, they have been restored to varying degrees. As for dollar value, it all depends on the car and the quality of the restoration if one was done. a lot of variables.
I would take an original over a resto any day of the week. With an original, there are no surprises, the car is as honest as the day is long. But, and it's a big "but", it has to be in very good shape otherwise it's just a pile of junk. Something that was thrown into a garage or barn wrecked or dismantled and forgotten about is no "barn find", it's a travesty. I especially love the ones that become a storage centre loaded down with boxes and all sorts of crap. Shows you what the owner thinks of the car. This car was an original. It had never been taken apart, and the paint and interior were all original. The car initially came from New Mexico. It was photographed the day it left my garage. This is the kind of animal I look for if I'm buying and paying a lot of money for an original. And yes, a respray or a overhauled power train is not considered an "original", it's considered "refurbished" and depending on the quality, a potential problem. Most senior series Buicks I've seen up here in Canada have all been "restored" on the cheap, they consist of a respray along with a transplanted SBC motor, along with a patternless vinyl seat-cover interior. The truck behind the car is a badly resprayed 1953 Dodge. It does have the original motor and power train, and if I'd fit in it I'd have bought it. It's kind of a cute truck.
Just my 0.02. I see the words "barn find" and automatically think "scam". "Survivor"? Hmm, that depends. They are all survivors if they haven't been turned into rebar. Its a matter of how well they have survived. If I am looking for a project car and if I see a shiny brand new paint job, I automatically wonder what was covered up. Usually something unpleasant. I look for very clean, unmolested, original vehicles as projects. One of my cars is a very original numbers matching car still wearing the factory paint. That was a plus when looking at. Nothing is hidden. You get what you see with it.
I too, am turned off by 'survivor' and 'barn find'. Their meanings are blurred (not that it ever was clear). Something else that turns me off is, Two paragraphs on The car from the original sales literature. I don't need to know what the car was like when brand new. Tell me what the current condition is. Without the meaningless clich.
I like original....problem I see is cars that where 'fixed' up in the 80's are being passed off as original, they kinda look the part but not really
"Survivor"? Survived what? In my opinion, a true survivor car has original paint, etc. with the only changes being ' normal wear' mechanical (no engine rebuilds) maintenance items.
You noticed that too? It seems that every guy that posts a hundred pics of the same thing also has to put in a whole page of B.S. about technical data or factory statistics. I say 10-15 good pics and restored(and type of restoration) or restorable with one repaint...etc. is all the info I need. Most of these guys are selling for someone else and the one's that aren't are clueless to the particulars. "Barn Find" means the car was lost,so who lost it,and why are you selling it? "Survivor" has a more specific meaning....original car with a fairly low amount of mileage that has basically been untouched with paint,modifications,or damage. Both terms are "good" for description if used properly. I would say 98% of the time they are not,and that just gives you some insight of the seller.
/\/\/\ So true. Also the terminology used to describe an "upgraded" car. : Went from clone, to recreation, to tribute.
Find whether a barn,Junk yard or field or where ever it is pulled from is just that a find. The work was done to 1: locate the owner 2:negotiate the purchase and price 3: get running. That is a find. Something that needs work to get operating. While survivor is a purposely and properly stored car. for what ever reason. I could take a 2017 Ford Focus RS properly store it in a garage and 50 years from now it would be a survivor. IMHO. A restored vehicle is just that restored to factory new. I hate seeing in an advertisement a vehicle is called "restored" but has modifications other than what came factory. That is a Restomod not restored. I have dealt with finds. One my wife's 84 Lincoln town car. It was parked in a field until my wife purchased it and I got it running for her. The other or current find is my youngest son's first car just purchased on Friday. This is a 1977 Pontiac Le mans, 350 Olds powered. It has been sitting for at least 20 years. This is a find. I showed it to my son about a month ago. He found the owner, negotiated the sale and price and now once he gets it to a place he can work on it. He will get it running. ( of course with Dad's help) But that is a find. Now are far a clones that is a sore spot for me. While up grading a vehicle to a higher trim level is fine but call it what it is. A clone no matter what work has been done to do the upgrades or how much it cost to do it. A clone or copy should NEVER EVER bring even half what an original example should, period, end of story. Now I have brought up the notion of a what if car. Like if I took my wagon and turned it into what a factory Stage 2 wagon would look like, or a GS or GSX wagon, or a GTO wagon That would be a phantom not a clone or copy. As, it is a 'what if' not a copy of a produced car. Almost could be a prototype but unlike Brad's GSX and GNX. A prototype is a manufacturer produced concept. Brad's cars luckily made it to the outside. Unlike most prototypes that are destroyed. Any vehicle that carries manufacturer plates do not have VINs and cannot be sold and has to be eventually destroyed. This is from a late friend who worked at the GM proving grounds. Tim
Personally just feel they are overused selling terms and dont pay much attention to them. Kind of the same as rare or 1 of 1. Anyone remember when all the muscle cars were advertised as the fastest around or too fast to drive. Now a true original owner, completely original muscle car (or maybe some day 2 modifications) is really great to see.
Every so often, a genuine 1 of 1 car does surface. Here's one such documented car, although it's now a muscle car. Proven to have been factory built. Recently sold by its 15 year owner and driven over 600 miles to a new one in Charlotte, NC. The video shows new owner driving away after dropping off previous one at the airport. https://www.facebook.com/adrian.m.clements.5/videos/vb.709815465/10154757669385466/?type=2&theater
I can't answer the poll without more detail for each. The problem is the term "restored" has wide range in definition these days. Because of so many Chinese parts and shortcuts that are taken in restoration, the average restored car today is often frowned upon which has given way to increased interest in survivor or barn find cars......often which the majority are money pits but perhaps haven't been molested by a hack.
Interesting topic. Being part of a family who owns 2 dealerships where as people have seen on here and Facebook and other sites what we sell and look for are original as possible classics, muscle cars, and just daily driver vehicles. We sell a lot of original or one owner survivor/original cars. My stepfather has been selling cars since 1979 and full time for himself since the late 1980s. He gravitates as do I towards original as possible cars. Barn finds can be interesting as when i think of them i think of a car that has sat in a structure for many years maybe covered in dust or parts or anything and hasnt moved for a long time. I guess a car could be a field find or use the specific phrase you want to call one found out in a field. I tend to think of barn/field finds as not being able to be driven and not in operational use. Car could be a survivor and not running if you think about it, but that i guess is subjective and not as objective as people think. I tend to agree with above listed definitions for resto mod or day 2 look and also a full blown restoration. Whether body on frame or off, if the car has done My opinion on a survivor for what its worth is an original or close to original car. Original sheet metal, Original paint, or maybe some places like a quarter panel or door or trunk or hood paint blended that may have been scraped or dented back in the day. A full blown repaint disqualifies to me a survivor car. The car should retain its original driveline and interior as well as sheetmetal, paint,etc. Brakes, tires, exhaust, etc and hoses to me are considered wear items. If they have been replaced to me it does not discount the car from being a survivor. I see a lot of people say a car is a survivor and its been repainted or frame off and i dont get that at all. Car should retain its original interior and trim and also vinyl top. You can get nitty gritty with details. I have put my 87 Limited in Survivor Class run by Alan Oldfield and also Sid Meyer. Two years in a row and both times the car scored Gold in the class achieving 386 and 388 out of 400 points. The only deductions were the fact i had my buddy paint the turbo heat shield, the fact i had a Non Delco battery (which will be changed to one), non Delco oil filter and also i had did not have gray in color caps that go on the tires. Otherwise the car has been touched up with touch up paint in a few areas, but its all original sheet metal , chrome trim, interior, everything else, all original. I just had the radiator re cored and had to replace the original water pump. Also i put on new tires, brakes and replaced the original exhaust. Most if not all the hoses and clamps are date coded 1987. It was a one owner car that a lady bought brand new in 1987 to replace a gray 1987 T that was totaled with less than 600 miles on the car. Car only has 79k miles on her. Next year i will bring down the 1970 Buick Gran Sport. This only has 54k miles. It is all original paint, trim, vinyl top, sheet metal and interior. The car has a Gardener exhaust on it and brakes and tires have been replaced. It retains a lot of its original hoses and has been owned by a few members of the GSCA who are also on this board. It has the original numbers matching drive train on her as well. And a lot of the original paperwork is with the car as well. She is not perfect by any means but she is original and a car can only be original once. The car has scratches and rock chips since Juanita Brown Downs, the original owner of it in April of 1970 lived in gravel roads of Waynesville North Carolina. I think of these cars as being pretty close if not fitting to the T the definition of what i believe a survivor to be properly defined. I do love seeing the restorations of Gran Sports and Turbo Regals while at BG. It takes a lot of time and money and hard work and the people keeping these cars alive and resurrecting them to be shown at shows and racing events to me is what it is all about. Preserving them for future generations to enjoy!! Going Fast with Class for life!
Interesting thread. Like other said my issue is the misuse of the word 'Survivor'. There is currently a GS350 on Craigslist Chicago. It's been on there since last year he was originally asking $15k now he is asking $12k. The car is brownish color and has a black stripe painted on the bottom. I called the owner about the car and asked about the black stripe. He explained that it was to cover up the rust he had fixed. So right there it is not a survivor. He has driven the car for many years and claims the car to be a survivor. My other problem is he used this car for the last many years and neglected to take care of it. The engine bay was never touched so full of rust. Same thing with the rest of the car. I personally would never buy that car for that money just to drive. I would want to restore it would would be a major undertaking. It would be a dream to find a real barn find or survivor. That would be toss up for me do you leave and enjoy, restore it, clean it up? That's where the statement "it's your car to do as you please".
I like the topic also,but I guess some of us(me) did not really answer the OP question. I would say any properly restored typical car is more valuable unless it just happens to be a GSx,GN,69 Trans AM...etc....rarity that is a true survivor. These cars command the dough because they were rare when they were new and a lot of them failed to survive early on. Some recent examples I have seen were a 69 COPO Camaro,70 Torino with factory drag pack,70 superbee with 7700 miles...all true survivors that brought ALL the money. I can also understand why they did,but in real world cars like most of us drive occasionally,I would want a nice shiny restoration with new appearance.I guess I'm still not on the boat with a decision because if someone showed me a restored 69 Biscayne with a big block and someone else had one with a numbers matching 427/435 hp aluminum head engine,which would I choose? I guess if its THAT rare I would take the bait.
