Wondered if any of y'all have comments regarding the attached - Excerpt from remarks to the Society of Automotive Engineers World Congress in Detroit. Whats the biggest challenge to engineering in the new world? Well, in my view, its the need for the modern engineer to be solution-oriented and more hands-on. This is at least as big a challenge as the quest to best utilize all the modern technology at our disposal. Being more hands-on gives the engineer a better perspective. It helps build the intuitive sense of what works and what doesnt. It gives a stronger feel for what is actually going on beneath the sheet metal. And, I think its a strong complement to working with all the virtual tools. It makes you that much better. Above and beyond all this getting inside an engine or crawling underneath a car, and tearing it apart and putting it back together is fun! It helps you develop better products, so you can share that fun with people who like to drive. We can make that happen there is a market for cars that people think are fun to drive. Theres room in the performance market for everybody, and at GM, we plan to take full advantage of it. Thats the mission of the GM Performance Division to produce vehicles to appeal to enthusiasts everywhere. These products include the Cadillac V-Series, the Chevy SS models, the Saturn Red Lines and the Pontiac GXPs. Also, GM Performance Parts supports GM Racing and weekend warriors everywhere by acting as the storefront for many of the components and systems developed during the racing involvement. We do a surprisingly good crate engine business, so we know theres still a strong contingent of folks out there who like to go fast, and who like to have fun. The point is that driving is fun, and there exists a fairly large and lucrative market for such fun in todays automotive industry, despite fuel prices and despite naysayers who feel otherwise. Engineering should be fun, too. Coming to work should be almost as fun as working on a hot rod in your garage. When it comes to cars, the art of fun hasnt really been lost it was just temporarily misplaced. At GM, were doing our best to change all that, both inside the company and out on the streets. * Bob
At least he realizes the performance problem and actually challanges his engineers to have fun and tear things apart to make them work better. I actually like what he had to say. the word performance and GM can be done, but styling well hopefully they can figure it out.
From my years as an engineer.... Here's my thoughts on this subject. I started at GMI Engineering & Management Institute (formerly: General Motors Institute, and currently: Kettering University) in 1988. (For those of not familiar, GMI, as I will call it, is a private engineering university that requires (at least it used to) the student to have Co-op employment; the schedule was 3 months work, 3 months school, 3 months work and so on...) Before I started working at Delco - Saginaw Manufacturing Plant (currently: Delphi Energy & Chassis - Saginaw Brake Plant or some BS name, I still work at the same place) - the engineering students would spend an entire semester of work assigned to an actual mfg./union job. For example, they would work on the assembly line for 3 months straight, just like a regular UAW employee. Then, in another work semester, they would work with the trade that matched their engineering choice (electrical engineering students worked along side of electricians, mechanical engr worked with millwrights or machine repair) Well, in the years before my arrival, the UAW slowly put a stop to it, as they were losing jobs from downsizing and certainly didn't want any snot-nosed college kid taking a job away from them. So, I was unable to do this as it was in the past. However, having grown up in a mechanical/gearhead/farm-y type environment - I had decent exposure to tools, engines, machining stuff etc. I was also lucky, as my mother worked in a small local injection molding company, and by osmosis and exposure - I picked up on 'the way things work'. By any means, I am am no mechanical Rainman, nor was I the greatest engineer. I was good, had an open mind and asked lots of questions. I did get many opportunities to work on stuff in ways which weren't technically allowed by the UAW, but most of the UAW people I worked with knew I wanted the experience/knowledge and wasn't after anyone's job. I told you all that to tell you this: I went to school with, and have worked with, and have seen them hire since I left the Engineering dept - some of the most clueless, non-mechanically inclined, dopiest kids that ever wore a pocket protector. They are book intelligent, no doubt, but one wonders how they tie their shoes in the morning. Much less ask them to identify a box end wrench from a cordless drill. They are terrible engineers. Some are still living in the world of differential equations and imaginary numbers. Some really have no grip on reality. I swear, they have hired "engineers" at our plant (which produces disc & drum brake corners) who could not point to the location of the brakes on their own cars. The BEST engineers I've seen were either 1) Farm kids, who grew up working on farm equipment, tractors, etc. They couldn't always pass the bookwork at school, but ask them to design something and build it from scratch - LOOK OUT! Same with motorheads/gearheads/car nuts. And 2) The engineers who were originally tradesmen, then were promoted to management back in the day when they didn't care about the degree as much as the abilities. I think that real-world experience is utmost for all engineers regardless of what industry they work in. But it definitely would be a plus in the case of GM.
Annie- I am an aeronuatical engineering dropout, but I have worked in the high tech composites field as a supervisor, QC guy, senior technician and engineering technician since '97, and I have to say that your assesment of what an 'engineer' tends to be right out os school is pretty much my own I have worked closely with mechnical and aeronuatical engineers for many years now, and it's easy to tell a real Engineer from a kid with an engineering degree. thatnk God i work with and for the former, not the latter. I have seen "engineers" who do not know which end of a screwdriver to hold, and if they did, it would fall from their grasp. I have seen (and work daily with) other engineers who not only know how to use technical equpiment, but actually can write the English language in a coherent manner. "Engineer" to me used to mean something- my neighbor growing up was an Engineer for Northrop (not Northrop-Grumman, Jack Northtop's company) in the '30 and '40s. that guy is something else I watched an engineer yesterday rip a data card out of an expensive photo-microscope because he didn't know that he had put it in upside down (I told him it was upside down). he then replaced it, and complained to me that i didn't know what i was doing- the 'scope still didn't work. Well, the view screen said "Close door", and I asked him to do so, after which it worked I learned how to use it by -gasp- reading the directions, a feat which some engineers refuse to attempt because they are 'too smart'. Well, in my book, a smart person realises when he or she doesn't have a clue about what they are doing, and they go find the info they need ou:
OK, so Lutz wants to get the current crop of "engineers" to get their hands dirty and learn about the real world. Sounds like a great idea to me, but: Until GM makes its current crop of beancounter "managers" get their hands dirty and learn about the real world, they're going to continue their slow, agonizing decline. I see no hope for GM. btw, what's the average age of decent machinists in your area? Around here, it's gotta be 60+.
Very interesting posts.... But the same thing goes on in my field Architecture. Graduates coming into the field know how to work a computer and use the software, but have no idea how a building goes together, only know and understand principles of design, thats it...In the real world you are going no ware fast....Having been in the business over 35 yrs, i have to turn work away, all because of the items mentioned above. :rant: :rant: :rant:
I would add.... ....that just because a new engineer didn't have extensive experience 'getting their hands dirty' before education doesn't mean that they can't become good/decent engineers. But it takes a certain attitiude and a lot of time. One problem I see with the fresh engineers - arrogant. They're like teenagers - they already know everything and they're always right and noone can tell them different. This is mostly from those who have trouble with tool identification and shoe tying. Very often, these are the new engineers who are sent on wild goose chases by the millwrights, for something like "Mahogany Welding Rod". Unfortunately, these cocky, smart alecky, but dumb as dirt engineers are the ones who appeal to upper management and generally end up getting promoted. Which leads to the discussion about how the Engineering degree is now being used by kids who have no intention of ever "engineering" anything - they are simply using it as a stepping stone to the management 'fasttrack', or the first rung on the ladder upwards and onwards. Unfortunately, engineers like I was - not afraid to get my hands dirty, crawl around machines and the like - get stuck picking up the pieces after these people after they are collecting the raise I should have gotten. Then, the next thing you know, that idiot is your BOSS. :spank: (And hence, my departure from management and all their politics, nepotism, favoritism, and the old boy's network). Anywho, I can beat that dead horse ad nauseum. But I surely don't think it would be a bad idea to send out the top engineers, the ones who sit around and dream up new engines, transmissions and such - send them all out to go through the local trade school's auto mechanic's course. They will develop a new appreciation for where things are placed, how they are attached and the like. Wouldn't be a bad idea to send all the managers and supervisor's out on the shop floor for a week straight every once in awhile too! (with competant adult supervision of course)
This is all very interesting,but. Been there done that. I use3d to go racing (SCCA 1LE Camaro the ford mutang (UGGHH) The young engineers were great you cant buy enough. These guys should be the future, They say every secretary that has an asst. sec should be fired. GM is in my blood there is no reason for this its been 20 years too many CEO"S. I relly do not think GM (Or is it the unions (Managment or Corporate.) I have met and know too many people in the hierarchy of GM. Does anyone hear me. Same ol, same ol. LOL Phil Ps there are still alot of gm racers (all GM) out there . I believe except for us diehards nobody is out there.
I think GM could go a long way towards fixing itself if it made all of the beancounters go out to the test track and have them flog the living daylights out of every model GM makes, from the Aveo to the XLR. Then, when they get done with that, take them to car shows, not the new car shows, but old cars. Maybe those two things would help them to see what needs to be fixed. Brian
Good comments - Keep 'em coming. I value your opinions. I have to run right now but will comment later. K
That'd be a good start, but what drives me crazy is GM's uncanny penchant for "cheaping out" on nickel-and-dime parts that affect 100/1000-dollar parts, and thus falling just short of having some really great products. For example, look at an old Chevy carb engine, and notice how GM "saved" maybe 3 or 4 cents by not having a throttle return spring mount in front of the carb, pulling against the throttle cable. Instead, they cheaped out, put the spring back to the throttle cable mount. This guaranteed that millions of perfectly good Q-jets would wear out their throttle shafts, and that one of the best carb designs ever would get a bad rap from millions of customers. "For want of a nail, a kingdom was lost." What gets me, GM has plenty of nails, they're just too cheap to actually use them. Ever see the movie "Zulu Dawn", where the front line British troops are running out of ammo and getting wiped out while the ammo runners have to get in an orderly line and sign for ammo? :af:
Its not just GM either - When I graduated from engineering school (yes, I used a slide rule...) my Dad told me I should go to work in a shipyard (he was still shocked that they did not have us weld or machine anything for graduation...). I did and still feel that was the most enjoyable and benefical 5 years of my career. Seeing how it was done in the real world made me a much better engineer. When I finally made it to HQ, I was surprised at how many engineers had never been aboard a ship that they "helped" design! I remember one boss who told me not to get my hands dirty when on field trips, us HQ types should not do that sort of thing. Sad but true. - Bill
Okay,Bob Lutz mentioned all the other models,but what about something for Buick(like bring back the GRAN SPORT moniker and really make a fire breathing monster once again). What Bob Lutz has to do is what he did for Chrysler. C'mon Bob,please do something for GM before their stock really plummets.
You haven't heard? the rumor is that either Pontiac or Buick is getting the axe. Since Pontiac just debuted a car that GM wants to sell (GTO), and since the GTO has competition from the new Mustang (good for both companies), I bet you don't need three guesses as to why he never mentioned Buick- Buick is all but on the gallows
Lutz did say that, but then I think it was about two days later Wagoner came out and pretty much said that Lutz was talking out his :moonu: and there were no plans to eliminate a division. So, hopefully Buick will be safe. Brian
OK - I'm back (it's been quite a day!). I appreciate everyone's comments, especially Annie's. I went to GMI, too (back when it was called General Motors Institute). One of my first things I noticed after starting school was how few "car guys" there were. The car club was called the "Firebirds" and we had all of 10 members, this in a school of about 400 students. I am still in touch with probably eight of those guys today. By the way, I use the term "guys" literally: I think there were two girls in the whole school. They were VERY popular :grin: K
Being a "solution oriented/hands on" kind of guy this certainly caught my attention. I'm glad to see someone in GM's upper management has this philosophy. I am often able to think back to some problem I've solved at home and apply some aspect of that to my work. I don't mean to offend any golfers that might be listening in but I could never see how chasing a little white ball around would make me a better engineer... K
