I think some of the big problems stemmed from my age, and the fact that I was doing a performance oriented build on a lesser known motor. These guys just assumed they could charge top dollar for lesser quality work and get away with it and I wouldn't know the difference. It all makes sense when they suddenly forget they were supposed to assemble the shortblock even though they ordered all the bearings and had the rings... I went with these people because a guy that rents with me at the garage recently had his LS3 assembled by them. This engine had a cylinder resleeved and a bunch of other work done and they charged him 2700 for a ready to run engine. His car runs great, in fact it made 350 to the wheels the other day on the dyno for a stock spec engine. So I feel like I was seen as an easy target.
I can't imagine these guys do any quality work. But I think most of the reason nothing bad is said is because they pump out assembled engines so the real story is sealed under the oil pan and intake. To get a little side tracked I have a least some quality stuff going into the car... excuse the sad shape of my car. Body work or a new shell is the project for this winter. At least the frame is painted and has all new parts.
Sorry to read about your bad experience. I wonder if you could contact the better business bureau? Some people have no shame. Other than that, things are looking really good! Gary
For the added stress and hassle it's not worth it to me to try and dispute this further. I paid them and received my property back after a service was performed. I feel like it's a large gray area. I know quite a few car guys in the area so it will be well known about the experience I have had. If I really wanted to be harsh about it I could just make one Facebook post with pictures and tag their page in it. The guaranteed fight after that just isn't worth it to me.
Man I'd be raisin hell up one side and down the other. Don't let them get away with that bull****. Maybe after things settle down a bit your courage will build back up. I'm sure right now you're just relieved it's over and reeling from the shock of it all. I'm sure all they saw was some young kid with an oddball engine they gave less than a **** about. Also smells like there's some 'good ole boy' bs going on too, with the recommendations and sponsorship referring to this shop. Maybe they were scared your Buick 350 would whip up on some of their golden child engines and purposefully ****ed it up? They can't get away with it forever, it'll bite them in the ass eventually. But in the mean time, they leave victims in their wake, laughing all the way to the bank. This pisses me off and it didn't even happen to me. I would be absolutely livid, and might even have to haul me off to jail lol... Just, wow man. So sorry. Make a plan when you feel up to it and make sure this doesn't happen to others. Gary
Your crank will determine what size bearings you'll need not the rods. When rods are re-sized material is taken off of the cap making the housing smaller and out of round when bolted back together, it is then bolted together with the proper torque and re-honed to the proper housing bore size. If the crank was re-ground to a bearing undersize that is what determines the need for undersize bearings. Basically the same thing is done to the main caps when the block gets line honed. You can torque your main caps on and measure the housing bores with your new bore gauge to make sure their in spec which is 3.1880"/3.1890" is what they should measure if you setup your bore gauge right and the bores are the right size. Plasti-gauge should be used as well to double check until you get more acquainted with setting up the bore gauge. Of coarse you should mic the crank journals to make sure you're starting out with the right bearings before even setting the crank in the block. You also need to check end play of the crank to make sure the thrust has the proper clearance. To set the thrust bearings you need snug down all the main caps then loosen the thrust cap then finger tighten the bolts down so there isn't any slack in the bolt but isn't tight. Then with a copper or brass or lead hammer strike the front of the crank sharply backwards, then do the same with the rear of the crank forward. What this will do is align the thrust bearing, only after this step can you check end play accurately because the thrust is forced to be aligned from top to bottom. If the top and bottom of the thrust isn't lined up then your end play reading will be less or even zero. The rings will need to be checked for the proper end gaps and make sure they're not installed upside down as well. This should be enough to keep you busy for a while. Don't be in a rush, take your time its not like you need to have this on the road to get you to work Monday. Derek
Derek, I appreciate the clarification. I am definitely new to this. I have friends that have built quite a few engines but since they aren't holding my hand through this it's nice to have some guidelines to go by. The way I see it, if I work on airplanes I sure hope I can pay enough attention to make this engine at least run if I follow directions haha. There will be a few tests of my competence once this car is on the road again since I built the 12 bolt myself and replaced all the suspension and brakes too. I can safely say I've messed with everything on this car
Awe man I'm so sorry about all this! I would avoid using water on the engine anyway to avoid rust... I am not sure what you should use I just let the machine shop clean them. Keep the engine oiled up on any machined surface or it will rust... Same with the crank, keep it oiled up. Some people use marvel mystery oil additive as it sticks well. I used Pam cooking spray one time and it protected the engine perfectly for 5 years till I was ready to assemble. Send me a pm with your email and you can ask me questions any time I do not mind at all.
The main thing to make sure that gets VERY clean are the bores. The crosshatch will hold stone grit and the very small metal particles that are scraped off from the honing stones that sticks in the scratches of the crosshatch.. I use brake clean and paper towels, DO NOT USE THE RED SHOP RAGS that you can buy in a parts store. You'll be able to see the grit on the paper towel with brake clean, keep wiping until you can swipe a new white paper towel in the bore with brake clean on it and it comes out white. What I do is stack a couple paper towels together and fold them twice spray the bore with brake clean and some on the towel and start wiping the bore. When the towel gets loaded with the grit and metal particles you see the color change and you can flip the towel then unfold it and fold it the opposite way and you have 2 more white sides to wipe the bore out. Don't be afraid to go through some paper towels they don't cost that much. If they start falling apart flip the towel. You will be able to feel the difference in how the bore feels with and without the grit on the cylinder walls. After you think the bore is clean, with clean hands wipe the bores down with your bare hands to get the paper towel lint out and make sure you don't feel anymore grit in the bores. When you're for certain the bores are absolutely clean you can spray a light coating of WD-40 or whatever spray protective oil you have on the cylinder walls for until you're ready to work on it again. As I remember I will try to add the things you need to do to have a successful build. If you leave the grit on the cylinder walls the rings would break in faster but it won't stop there, with every stroke the rings and the bore will keep 'breaking in" when they should be done. The stone grit will embed in the rings and the cylinder walls forever removing material from each other with every stroke, you don't want that. Derek
The reason I ask about diamond vs. stones is that diamonds tend to tear the material away and fold it over into the valleys of the cross-hatch. You can see it with a loupe. The "plateau brush" isn't a luxury, it's required as a measure to knock the "fold-over" off. It's a tricky, time consuming learning curve for the best shops, JS... The main benefit is that the shop enjoys much longer life as they are barely consumable as well as fewer stone changes and dressing. There are very few benefits to the end user. Mostly, it tears up rings until they get it "right". It doesn't make a better quality bore, only a cheaper one for the shop. Plenty of info to search on Speedtalk, esp. "advanced engine" Not trying to ask a million pointless Q's about your build, but it pays off to be able to look at their work and make decisions before you put it together. It also helps to get input from members that do or have done this for a living. They might have ran a hone down the lifter bores to take care of the burr created by possibly using a bake/blast cleaning method. Otherwise they might not bother. (If they didn't charge you for it, it's a good guess as to the reasons) It's too bad that so many shops bank on the fact that it is difficult to verify their work without good training/insight. Your mic and bore gauge only need to repeat to be worthy. You are going to zero them from a piston and take comparative measurements. No need to have certifiable standards/processes. Yes the lifters may vary in diameter by more than a few tenths, some brands are less consistent than others. Plenty of past quality control issues and internet searching there, too. The more you look into this stuff, the scarier it's going to get
So a lot has happened and at the same time not much I guess. All the lifter bores checked out fine, all to the tighter end of specified clearances. Piston to wall clearance seems good in all cylinders, and I have file fit the rings (.021 for the steel top ring and .025 for the cast iron second ring) Main journals measured fine and plastic gauge showed .0015" clearance which is the higher end of the Buick manual spec for now bearings so I'm happy with that. Keep in mind this is an untouched crank from my original engine (supports my theory that this car truly was a 30,000 original mile car and I have put 20,000 on it since then) I put 2 pistons in the motor and those clearances were .0015" as well on the rod cap. I had some confusion, the rods being that they are from a 73 motor and are capscrew, are totally different from the factory rods as far as direction identification. These rods came to me unmarked but TA numbered them during the resizing so from then on I assume the machine shop and myself have been using those stamped numbers as the reference for what cylinder they will be installed in. A few members told me the large chamfer goes towards the crank fillet(end of throw). So I installed both pistons like that in cylinders 1 and 2. Here's the issue: By installing the rods with the large chamfers facing away from each other (towards crank fillet) a large gap is between both rod bearings. The dimples then face opposite each other as well (raised dots on rods) the balance pads on the uncut rods also are strange in this orientation as the chamfered ends of the pads face towards each other. It just doesn't seem correct to me at all. The two rods installed have had the big end and small end balance pads almost completely removed so i didnt notice this at first when they were installed. I assume this is because these rods aren't a matched set and those two were very heavy compared to the other 6 which appear untouched So say I swap the rod direction 180. Face the dimples towards each other, now there is a piston issue. Apparently these JE pistons are directional even though there is no arrow or identifying mark or even a slight sentence in the paperwork that says left or right or front or back. If I swap the rods around the small end of the rod now contacts the piston. Apparently only one side of the piston is ground down adjacent to the rod inside the skirt. Whether this is only an issue because of the sbb rods or if it's intentional I am not sure. Maybe these are offset pin rods? (Sure doesn't seem like it) Either way that's put a wrench in this weekends plans so I have to call TA and JE pistons to get concrete answers. Worst case it seems is I have to have the pistons flipped on the rods and I'll have to find a competent machine shop to do that since my original choice certainly can't be trusted. Then I can put the cam and lifters in, temporary install the heads and rockers and measure pushrod length. How do you guys normally do that for hydraulic lifters and adjustable rockers? Totally new for me.
Ignore the rod numberings. Shops sometimes hang the pistons "4 one way, 4 the other" without regards to the #'s I didn't quite catch if they are hung so that there aren't any appropriate cylinders to put them in. Typically the large chamfer goes towards the crank radius to keep the bearing from riding the crank radius. If uncertain, you can ink up the crank radius and install both rods on the journal to check. Avoid removing the pistons from the rods if there is any possible way to do so. You might not have any way to measure if they get distorted or damaged from press removal. Might be able to caliper the piston to ascertain the pin being offset or centered. .0015" (bearings) is pretty tight to get run hard, but that's just my preference. (I'm assuming checked dry?) Bearings differ brand to brand and the industry has seen QC issues. Often the crank is ground last to be able to arrive at a specific clearance.
What is strange is that the large chamfer side of the rod is also where the bearing is closest to the outside that's why I haven't been able to say for sure how it should be installed. Both sides of the rod have at chamfer. It's just the one side is noticeably larger than the other I see what you mean about the piston installation. I haven't checked all the Pistons to see if the shop did that. Honestly I doubt they did it correctly because there is no obvious indication the Pistons are directional until you install them in the motor. I guess the only cylinder specific thing I have done is file fit the rings which is easy to just remove and keep with the cylinder they were filed for. I'll take a look at everything next weekend. Stinks having to wait all week.
I wanted to see how the ports in the intake would line up and how the machine shops intake fitting would work out. It seems like it will work. Still upset they elongated the bolt holes instead of machining the side of the heads like I had asked. This is with .032" intake gaskets. So I have some room to play with if needed. I'd like to see if I can borrow a borescope from a friend to get a better look at the port alignment. Had to set the valve covers on too because I've been wanting these TA covers since I bought the car 5 years ago
Some pics that may help: One side of the rod is flat and the other side has a chamfer to it... The chamfer side goes against the crank. You may have to switch a few pistons around on the rods to make it all work properly.
Scribing the port openings to the front of the intake and head eliminates the need for a borescope. Also, you need to do this to correct port alignment anyways. They are nice to have though. Rings aren't installed on the pistons during mock assembly. Install them on the final assembly, it reduces risk of damage and simplifies the work.
It seems the machine shop had already scribed the heads and intake and thats how they determined the needed to open up the ports on the intake. I just don't trust them and figured it couldnt hurt to make sure everything lines up well. I thought I was ready for final assembly of the bottom end until my friend came by and had second thoughts about what I felt was the correct rod direction. That's whyI want to be certain now. Sean, both sides of the 350 capscrew rods have a chamfer, its just that one side is larger than the other. Installing the large chamfer to the edge of the crank throw leaves a large gap between the adjacent rod bearings which I don't feel is correct. I just want to know if there is a Service manual recommendation. I have a 72 manual which describes what direction the older rods must be, I can't find any manual excerpts for 73 and up rods though.
Oh...the large chamfer goes towards the crank side...the space between the bearings in a non-issue on the other side (the sides that meet). That's a part of the overall rod side clearance equation
