Freeze 12. R 12 drop-in

Discussion in 'The Big Chill' started by ceas350, Aug 5, 2010.

  1. ceas350

    ceas350 "THE BURNER"

  2. lsrx101

    lsrx101 Well-Known Member

    Here we go again!:laugh:
    That's not Freeze 12, which is a Fluorocarbon based refrigerant.
    HC-12a is a Hydrocarbon based refrigerant:
    http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

    It's illegal to use it in mobile AC systems in most states, it will void aftermarket parts warranties and most HCs are flammable.
    HC12a works very well as a refrigerant in AC systems, but so do ammonia, propane and sulphur dioxide.

    Beware the words "drop in replacement for R12" in any advertising. There is no such thing.
     
  3. ceas350

    ceas350 "THE BURNER"

    Not to be rude but I'm going to school for HVAC so I know the diff that's why I said "freeze 12 or this stuff" and posted a link to something else
     
  4. lsrx101

    lsrx101 Well-Known Member

    HC12a or Freeze 12. Gotcha.

    Stay away from the HCs unless you are just curious. There are 2 proven refrigerants out there that work very well and are approved by OEM and aftermarket mfgrs. for mobile systems. HCs work well but there's too many grey areas with them for mainstream mobile AC use.

    Freeze 12 falls into the "why bother" category these days.
    It's 80% R134a with 20% R142b added to carry the old (R12) mineral oil around the system. Only the R134a does the cooling.
    It was an easy way to "convert" to a cheaper refrigerant when R12 systems were only a few years old. Now, 17 years later, most R12 systems need to be opened for some age related maintenance. At that point, using mineral oil and Freeze 12 (instead of PAG/Polyol Ester and R134a) is kind of pointless.
    It was a good product but it's target market has pretty much gone away.
     
  5. Briz

    Briz Platinum Level Contributor

    I have used R-414A in a number of older R-12 systems with no problems. of course these were cars that I owned and I didn't really car about the long gevity of the systems but for as long as it stayed in there it cooled great. 1 or 2 of them are still working for the people I sold the cars to.( sold as is with full disclosure)
     
  6. ceas350

    ceas350 "THE BURNER"

    Briz what's up man... since you have your own HVAC company what do you think about the hc12??? Seein how it will have a lower pressure in the evap coil, won't that lower the temps at the vents? I don't care about it bein flamable:birthday:
     
  7. Dale

    Dale Sweepspear

    I filled my '92 Park Ave with Freeze12 about 6 years ago and have never had a problem.
    It sure as heck beat the $2,000.00 I was quoted to "Fix" the system back when I bought the car.
    :rolleyes:
     
  8. ceas350

    ceas350 "THE BURNER"

    That's what I'm talkin about ... actual experience with the drop- ins
     
  9. wixom61

    wixom61 Well-Known Member

    My '71 Olds 98 daily-driver has Freeze-12 in it, and it cools just fine. Now that I know my system has no leaks, I will probably use the real stuff, R-12, in it for super-cold A/C. :beers2:

    David :)
     
  10. Dale

    Dale Sweepspear

    Well if it needed a recharge you know it leaked.

    My system was completely exhausted of R-12 when I got the car.
    This freeze 12 hasn't leaked out to that extent. I probably topped it off once in those 6 years.
    My layman's theory is that the molecules of the refrigerant used in Freeze12 are larger than that of R-12 and it doesn't escape as easily.
    :idea2:
    Sounds good anyways. :laugh:

    If you take it to a shop to have it charged with R-12 they will leak test it and will be required to fix it before they can fill it.

    Similar to you Olds. When I had my '72 Electra in for an AC recharge before a trip, and went in to pick it up, the old guy that serviced it was practically jumping up and down he was so excited. [​IMG]
    38* at the vent!! Look, I'll prove it!
    You don't see that on any of this new junk they build!
    It was frosty cold for sure.
     
  11. northcorner

    northcorner Guess what I'm thinking..

    I've used the hc-12 in my tractor and in my old ford farm truck. It's been in my truck for about 5 years now. I tried it because of all the hype and advertising at that time. It works fine. I honestly can't tell the difference in it or freeze 12 in the truck. I had the same results in my tractor, but in an old r 12 system, all of the alternative refrigerants work fine up until around 95 degrees ambient. After that, they don't cool as well as the old r 12 can. I bit the bullet and paid the big:dollar: for the r-12 to go back into my tractor after a compressor failed. It was 110 degrees ambient this past week here, and the old r-12 kept me cool as a cucumber:bglasses: .As for in a vehicle, freeze 12 is readily available around here, so that's what I use.
     
  12. ceas350

    ceas350 "THE BURNER"

    Thanks guys
     
  13. Briz

    Briz Platinum Level Contributor

    Ok heres my take on this right or wrong its just my ideas about the stuff. I believe, and I could be wrong, Freeze 12, Cool It 12 , hot shot and a hand full of others are just brand names of a blended refergerent called R-414A. It has all the same propertys of real 12 and uses the same oils as 12. The main differences is that the "drop in" has a higher head pressure and over charging will cause a list of problems. Lower suction pressuers in the Evap will make it colder but also freeze up the coils. if your manifold has a saturation temp scale along with the PSI readings charge it to 38-40 Degrees with the engine at idle. when you bring up the RPMs to driving speeds the pressures willl drop and it will get colder. Ive said it before. I do residential comfort cooling. I just play with auto air for myself and some friends and family.I am in no way and expert in that area. ( my disclaimer)
     
  14. lsrx101

    lsrx101 Well-Known Member

    Briz,
    I'm just the opposite of you, I'm in the Mobile AC biz and only know a little about HVAC. It's funny how those two fields can be so much alike, but yet so different.
    Since you are in the HVAC biz and are familiar with refrigerants and refrigeration in general, here's some food for thought:

    The composition, pressures and P/T characteristics of R12 alternates are all over the map. They all attempt to mimic the properties of R12 and some do it pretty well. Some don't do well at all. Problem is, most of them have some "gotchas" that prevent them from being truly viable substitutes in automotive systems. (HCs actually run at much lower pressures within the system, it's their main selling point).

    Here's a list of EPA approved and unapproved alternatives for motor vehicles which shows their composition (R414a is GHG-X4/ Autofrost):
    http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/macssubs.html

    One thing to keep in mind is that "EPA approved" only means that it is not harmful to the environment. It makes no determination about the suitability of any refrigerant for an automotive system.

    For example, the R414a that you mentioned is "approved" to replace R12 in mobile systems, but it contains R22 which is corrosive to the rubber found in automobile systems. It's properties are very close to R12 and it cools very well, but it's not really a viable substitute.

    Carbon Dioxide (R-744) is also listed as an acceptable alternate to R12 in mobile systems. The problem with C02 is that it just doesn't work at the pressures found in any current mobile AC system.:puzzled:

    Most alternates are "zeotropic blends" made up of differing amounts of various compounds to make them mimic R12 and/or be compatible with mineral oil.
    In a hermetically sealed system such as a refrigerator or other sealed systems blends are fine. In leak prone systems such as those found in cars, fractionation becomes a major issue.
    Zeotropes separate into their individual components when distilled (fractionate), as in a refrigerant loop. The lighter, oil carrying components leak out first causing oil starvation to the compressor. They also cannot be "topped off" as it changes the blend percentages and the P/T relationship.

    R12 is azeotropic, meaning it will not separate into it's different components when distilled. The only other azeotropic refrigerant with properties close to R12 is R134a. That's one big reason it was chosen as the preferred replacement for R12 in automotive systems.

    The whole "R12 alternative" question was a real quagmire from the get go pre-1993. It's even worse now because today good, accurate, mistaken, erroneous, and just plain wrong, information all propagates quickly and thoroughly via the Internet and cannot be removed. The differing information, opinions, personal views, anecdotal data, etc combine to form a continuous loop of disagreement.

    I hope this helps you understand the whole " R12 drop in replacement" thing, at least a little bit. I really just scratched the surface and I'm by no means an authority on the subject.
     
  15. Briz

    Briz Platinum Level Contributor

    :gp:
     
  16. thebuick

    thebuick Well-Known Member

    I have some R12's and we added a can with the R134A and it works very nice, just my 2 cents of knowledge.:rolleyes:
     
  17. 71skylark3504v

    71skylark3504v Goin' Fast In Luxury!

    I swear if someone within reach told me HC12a was dangerous because it was flammable I would kick them in the balls. Whether or not it works well is one thing, but don't spread this kind of bull unless you actually remember your basic chemistry.
     
  18. BillyBoy

    BillyBoy Well-Known Member

    HC12a is 40-70% propane. Last time I checked, propane is flammable.

    The real question... is it any more dangerous/flammable than 134a or R-12 mixed with refrigerant oil?

    probably not.
     
  19. northcorner

    northcorner Guess what I'm thinking..

    I've always wondered why someone would worry if it was flamable or not. It's funny that no one thinks twice about putting 20 gallons of highly flammable gasoline in their tank:puzzled:
     
  20. ceas350

    ceas350 "THE BURNER"

    That's why I don't care if its flamabme or not.
     

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