Over the years I have learned to respect and appreciate GM products. In addition to many current GM products I have owned Saab's, Volvos, BMW's & Fords. Saab and Volvo were engineering jokes. The cost of maintenance was mind-boggling and reliability was a real issue with both brands. The Fords and BMW's were not much better in terms of nickel-and-diming me to death. It seemed that the Fords were a 30,000 mile vehicle, that is, that after 30,000 they just felt like old & worn vehicles. I am also surprised that GM is having sales issues. I think it is probably just cyclical. I hope they do not eliminate another brand. I think that would be short sited. Maybe it is just me, but I can't imagine owning an asian car or truck. I hate rice.
Remember Harley Earl. Say what you want about Harley Earl, some of his designs were pretty out there, but at least you could look at the car and see a vision. One man with carisma is associated with nearly every great car out there. GTO- Delorean, Mustang- Iaccoca, Corvette- Arkus Dunkov, Cobra- Shelby And every collosal flop Edsel- Ford, etc. Who is the great innovator responsible for the new Malibu? Nobody.... because it is a product of the, "none of us is as smart as all of us" type of thinking. Focus groups and accountants don't get it done. If GM gets its designers to retro style the Camaro, makes it roughly the same size as the new Mustang, and uses off the shelf technology to keep the price on the planet, they won't be able to build them fast enough. ....and while people are checking out the Camaro they might notice the new Malibu, or the Cobalt.
Good info. Thanks. Like I said before, several on here don't like Nissan designs. I like most. I must not be alone since I see very many on the roads each day. Opinions: They make this big ole world go round. Glad we all can voice them.
How can you be suprised??? I doubt it is cyclical and the perfect evidence is the fact that they have been losing market share for years---that is not cyclical....good times and bad they are losing share and they are admitting now that it's not the overall market that is hurting them...it's themselves. They need an Altima-type car to save the sedan market share (that car is/was an ABSOLUTE HOME RUN for Nissan). The trucks are fine with a new one slated for '07 I believe. I think, however, they will fail as they are incapable of designing/manufacturing a new (successful) model in the passenger car segment fast enough to save them or reverse the trends. Quite simply, they are being outrun by the competition. Financial problems loom on the horizon---their debt (bonds) is now one notch above "junk" rating---if they get downgraded again then their borrowing costs continue to go up (lower rating means higher interest rate for borrowing). There is a "point of no return" for these guys--and it is fast approaching. Should they reach that point they will have to file for Ch11 bankruptcy and reorganize. They are a ways off from that but a few more bits of bad news and the snowball will start rolling. Someone in another thread noted they have $300 BILLION in debt...GM only has around $30B in debt....GMAC carries most of that "$300B" and it is backed by loans/cars, etc. GMAC would most likely not be put into Ch 11. Their next move will be to cut or eliminate the dividend on their stock...they pretty much have no choice. BTW--these guys are beyond being able to count on a niche car like the Camaro to bail them out...they are too big and their problems much too large for anything like that to make a difference.
This is some of the reason I took a buyout from GM. They are not only in trouble with there poor management. some product lines, there pension fund 2 people working for every 5 retired. Won"t be long before they will be needing some help. I feel sorry for all the people that just retired from our plant wondering how long there pensions will last. Don't get me wrong, I will always be into Buicks and have great support for the older cars. But looking at the current situation it's not looking very good. Just like on COPS no one is ever guilty. Just like to point fingers. GM Employees' Grievances Offer the Automaker a Dose of Reality The Detroit News March 30, 2005 By Daniel Howes (Column) As the world's largest automaker teeters near the edge of a financial abyss, most eyes focus on the top. How soon will General Motors Corp. bow to the demands of the financial markets and cut plants and people in the United States -- and by how much? Will people start holding vice chairman Bob Lutz, chief product guru for some three-and-a-half years, accountable for new vehicles failing to meet expectations? If not now, then when? Could chairman Rick Wagoner or one of his lieutenants pay with their jobs? If someone does, would it change the fundamental challenges -- high costs, sliding market share and lackluster new cars -- facing GM? They're all valid questions, even if some of them are premature and the RenCen would prefer not to hear them voiced publicly. They exist nonetheless, overlaid with a deepening angst and disappointment familiar to tens of thousands of GM households across America. For evidence, consider e-mail responses to my Sunday column, shorn of names (which I have) to protect the writers from retribution: Writes a 20-year GM veteran: "I was in the union for eight years and have been in management for 12. I get so sick and tired of all the excuses that upper management makes every time they don't make their targets. "We have done well in quality and efficiency, but we still lack big time when it comes to the design of our cars. The morale in the ranks of the salary folks is lower than I have ever seen it." Says a 34-year GM-UAW member: "The current fiasco at GM and the division of our populace as a whole in this country could be solved or at least alleviated by some honest leadership. "The latest complaint that health care is the greatest obstacle to GM's success is a smoke screen to cover over 30 years of management's poor decision-making. The public, consumers, shareholders and the GM workforce all deserve better." Adds a GM-UAW member: "I can't thank you enough for stating that UAW members have no control of design, marketing or engineering. This is a frustration that me and my co-workers are dealing with." Another GM-UAW member says: "It's not the divisions within GM that need to be altered, it is the vehicles within the divisions. How many Hummers, SSRs, Solstices or GTOs can you sell? Can you really afford to engineer and manufacture this stuff? This is why GM is not making it." Finally, a GM salaried employee nearing retirement: "GM has been very good to me. But ... GM is headed for self-destruction. GM has lost touch with the average customer because GM has failed to see that the 'average' customer is the very workforce they seem to be leaving behind." These are people who have poured their adult lives into GM; whose livelihoods are on the line; who are smart enough to understand that failure or continued stumbling by their employer will hurt them, their community and the national economy. These also are people whose hard work, goodwill and sacrifice GM will need to reverse course, which is why it's worth listening to them
Actually, from what I have read, their pension plan is in pretty good shape...right now it is fully funded. The "killer" right now is their healthcare costs---this is going to change, Ch 11 or not. It sounds kind of bad, but time helps them on the pension side as after 2009 or 2010 the number of pensioners starts to shrink.
Wrong. GM had gained a lot market share up to almost 30% a few years ago and Ford was floundering at the time. The big three have been trading market share 'ups and downs' for years. The General will be back in a big way before you know it. The last thing GM needs to do is emulate a Nissan product.
Sell-off Another little known piece of GM news is the sale of their locomotive division, EMD a few months ago. At one time this would have been unimaginable. EMD dominated the locomotive market in North America from the 40's until the early 80's when GE surpassed them in sales (and the two exchanged places in quality as well) EMD locomotives built during the decade of the '70s are considered some of the best ever-- reliable, low maintanence, loved by crews. Most are still in service. Then they decided to mess with success and make wholesale changes in the '80's and reliability sufferred. The major carriers turned to GE and some haven't looked back. It is historically accepted that EMD killed the steam engine with their fine products and was one of the 'behind the scenes' bellweather GM divisions. Not anymore. As far as cars and trucks are concerned, many here are correct, I believe it starts with design and marketing. Many companies put out the occasional lemon (monday or friday cars, according to my Father and his ex- problem child '98 Blazer) Its the big picture that sells cars-- Look at the GTO--- done on the cheap with an existing platform from another continent, slap on a legendary emblem and expect it to sell like hotcakes even though it looks like a ricer??? Bad idea, seems kinda desperate.
"Had" is the operative word----they are losing market share plain and simple....let's see...Toyota continues to gain DOMESTIC market share---whose hide do you think that is coming out of(all of the big 3's) GM's domestic market share has been shrinking NOT GROWING for years. Facts is facts. Sure, they can trade licks with Ford and Chrysler from year-to-year and quarter-to-quarter but the fact is their share of the total US car sales is SHRINKING. GM once had 50% of the domestic market (30 years ago or so) they now have about half that......30 years is not "cyclical"...Toyo, etc aren't going away...the only thing going away is GM's share.
GM Broke How many people earning under $15.00 an hour can afford a vehicle being made by people earning over $27.00 an hour ? And what about GM paying one , yes I said ONE, CEO $19,000,000.00 in 2003 and $17,000,000.00 in 2002 ? Why are they loosing money? Beats me.
Easy---ever heard of GMAC? :laugh: Also---they still aren't losing money (yet)---they just cut their estimates but they are still in the black. and.....just to add fuel to the fire...apparently there is now a massive glut of UNSOLD new cars in China with prices being CUT 27%!!!!----wait til those guys start loading this cheap crap onto the boats and selling it here. All the talk you hear of China growing----well,yes but 50 cents/hour doesn't make for a whole lot of new car buyers.
My last 2 GMs have not been great not even very good. Maybe I'm the only one with bad GM luck but I doubt it. '99 Silverado Z-71, bad 4wd switch, 2 bad driveshaft yokes (2nd was "new upgraded version", sticking throttle body, 3rd door won't latch under 10 degrees, leaking front pinion seal, broken exhaust manifold bolts, bad seat slides (ever try to drive with the seat sliding back and forth with every stop or go), half the radio illumination dead, bad ABS motor. All this on a $31000 truck within 95000 miles, that has never been offroad or abused. '98 Pontiac Transport Montana, 83000 miles, leaking intake gasket (dealer wanted $900 to repair), CV boots shot both sides, 1 headlight lens fell off the other had 1/2" water in it, howling l/s front wheel bearing, bad rear air shocks, headliner starting to sag, However I do love the mpg it gets. There is so much competition out there for the few people that can afford new cars that you had better have fresh styling with either great perceved quality or a great warranty. I can relate to this since I after 11 years I am laid off from a Japanese transplant company and looking at a new career.
You are not the only one my LAST GM was a total piece of junk. It will take alot to get me to buy another one again.
I like the Impala, the Escalade, and the trucks. Everything else is just boring. As far as Dodge, they tarnished the Charger name by making it a 4-door and making a V6 available.
In my opinion Gm hasen't built a good vehicle since 1987. They don't listen I want a full frame rear wheel drive car with a v-8 and steel bumpers. They build so much " planned maintance " into there cars and trucks ( all of the big 3 do) eg. no grease fittings on ball joints or how about expencive rear disc brakes on a pick-up truck?????( ok on a ferrrari but not a truck!!) or even my beloved 86 regal when I come to think of it, the rear backing plates are paper thin? Gm has become good at making cars no one can afford!!!!! Here in Canada $60,000 plus for a pick-up truck??? or Camaro's and Firebirds when they 1st came out were for the " youth market" and didn't cost an arm and a leg? at the end they were over $45,00 here???? Give me a break!!!! and they wonder why people didn't buy them? I love the look of the new SSR truck but I'm not Donald Trump!!!! They got greedy!!!! I mean a cadilac pick up truck????? And front wheel drive!! Thats another topic!! They get a little fender bender and they are a write off, have you ever wondered why our insurance rates are so much!!!! They light weight every thing in the name of fuel economy or safety?? and they fold up like paper!!! Total junk!!! Someone told me why don't you get rid of your 93 caprice its a gas hog. Well my butt and my family are worth whatever the arabs charge for gas!!!! not to mention that my family has a much better chance of surviving a wreck!!!! A guy at work was saying how safe his new PT Cruizer was I told him ok put your kids in the back seat of that and I'll run into the back of you with my gas hog!!! People just don't think!!!!! I work at a stock car track and I see every week how real cars fold up never mind the crap detroit is putting out!! Make affordable cars ,make them cheap to fix ,and build them to last!!! or piss off and I'll build my own!!! I won't buy crap!!!! Brad ( whew !! Now I feel better!!!!! If only " they " were listening!!!) Brad
I love this thread I am not saying I know all that much about GM apart from what I can read. I do know this, I am basically a simple person when it comes to buying cars. If the last brand X was good to me I will probably buy another. In 1979 my Dad bought a New Ford truck and over the next 5 years my father, brother and I put 3 transmissions in it. We did it ourselves because we didn't have the $$ to pay to have it done. I have never bought a Ford since, not because Ford hasn't made anything good, but because the memory of lying underneath that POS in the dead of winter freezing my "extremeties" off has never faded. I bought 5 new Chrysler products in a row until a Stratus needed a new head gasket at 57K miles and the dealership told me I, "did well" making it that long. BTW the same applies to good experiences. My dad also had 3 Buick Skylarks before I bought mine in 1981. 23 years later I got another.
In my earlier posts, I didn't mean all GM autos were horribly designed. They have some nice cars. I even think the GTO is a very nice car. But, they all seem average in appearance, and that is at best. This is the safe way to design cars and not go out on a limb. They even let me down with their late 90's change in pickup design. It didn't look much different than the 88 (although a better all around performer). The Aztec is proof of how ugly they can build. My whole life is average, so I want a car that sticks out of the crowd. GM does not offer that option for me.
I've got my two (everything else in my sig belongs to the family), I'll buy one more, and I don't ever plan on buying a new car. Not from GM, anyway. The only reason I'm getting another one is because of gas prices. One of my friends asked why I drive my 81 when it uses so much gas? His truck (a Ford) sat out for a month and the transmission seized up. Mine sat for a year after I blew the motor, and the transmission shifted like the day it was new. Mine's an 81, his is a 99. Something wrong with that. Mine even got hit with a dump truck one time, I drove it home that night. 99.9% of all new cars are POSs. GM ain't made a decent truck since 87 (when I said I like the trucks earlier, I meant compared to everything else on the road). They haven't made a good small 4x4 SUV since the old Blazer. The best of their cars I've ever rode in was a 93. All car companies are going down the drain. Y'all just wait. I'm going to school to build cars when I get out of high school, and I'm gonna model all mine after the early 80s Chevys.
