Hey guys, need some help here. I'll be getting the body for one of the convertibles back from the blaster soon, and need to get your opinion on primers. My plan is to clean/vacumn everything out, and then get it in primer, and work on it gradually over the next 6 months or so, so it will be in primer for a while. I've talked to a few places, and they recommend an etching primer, then a 2 part epoxy primer over that. Does this sound correct, and any suggestions on brands? If I sand off sections to do bodywork all the way down to metal, will I have to etch and 2 part again, or just 2 part. I guess my question here is if you have metal and filler, will the etching go over the filler? I know all this sounds silly, just haven't painted a car since the 80's, and that was in laquer. I used krylon spray cans for primer believe it or not, and it still is holding up. I think at the time I had gone over the krylon with 'Variprime'??. seemed to work well... thanks for the help...!:TU:
Etching Primer is for bare metal, because it "bites" hard and stick where most other primers don't. If you as you mentioned with the 2 part primer, sand back down to bare metal during your body work, you do not have to re apply the etching primer. You can if you want to, but it isn't necessary. -Josh
My opinion here, may mean more work than you planned... If you have filler over bare metal, it needs to go. Bare, clean metal can be etched with a diluted phosphoric acid solution like PPG's metalprep. Immediately rinse off with clean water and then force dry the surfaces. I'd skip the metal etching primer, as PPG's DP-40 epoxy primer is designed to go over the clean, acid-etched metal (I don't use etching primer anymore). After the epoxy primer is cured, it can be lightly scuffed for any areas to receive filler. I try to do this within a week of spraying the epoxy. If I need to fill areas after one week, I scuff and respray the epoxy in that area only. If you cut through to bare metal while sanding filler, just spot coat it with the epoxy again. Once this is done I use a high-build primer (used to be K-200, now I hear good things about K-36). Using off-color guidecoats, I start sanding and spot priming until everything's straight. You can then seal it or just topcoat over the K-36. Using DP-40 as my foundation for filler (and I have lots in my car, it's just a thin coat over a large area) is probably why I haven't had any issues with my paint since I welded in all the patch panels and sprayed the car in '93. It's an awesome, water tight film protecting the steel. Here are some pics of the "resurrection": http://home.comcast.net/~shinzan/buick1.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~shinzan/buick2.jpg that's all the crap that had to come out http://home.comcast.net/~shinzan/buick4.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~shinzan/buick5.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~shinzan/buick6.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~shinzan/buick25.jpg Devon
alot of restoration shops use the PPG DPLF primers...as stated in previous post bodyfillers will stick to it..I recomend grinding the area that you will need "bondo" with a 50 grit disc...then prime with an epoxy primer...Glasurit makes an excellent product called 801-1552 it is an epoxy primer with a built in acid etch...you get the beniefits of a self etching primer and an Epoxy...it can also be used as a filling primer...another option is Spies 3508 with a precoat primer before hand...this is a polyester based primer filler..it can be sprayed in multiple coats up to a 1/4" with no cracking....
First things first.....pick one or the other for your first coat but UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING: >Do not put EPOXY over ETCH PRIMER >Do not put polyester over ETCH PRIMER...polyester is bondo (body fillers) or a high build polyester type surfacer (basically sprayable bondo to put it simply) For ease of use and protection if it's going to sit awhile in primer I would use one of the EPOXY PRIMERS as your first coat. PPG's DP line is excellent as are others that have already been mentioned. I would then scuff with a Scotchbrite pad (Grey or Red) and apply filler over that. After the bodywork is "done" I would spot prime over the body filler and areas where you cut through to bare metal (typically around the edges of the filler) with EPOXY again. Then move on to your build priming stage(s).
I've had good luck with Evercoat's "Featherfill" as a high build primer. Although it is polyester based . . . i think. Not that you'd want to, but I'm pretty confident you could spray this stuff up to a 1/4" thick and it still wouldn't run. Best filler primer I've used yet, although I don't have a ton of experience with it.
MadMax69 - Don't interpret any of this stuff as there being something WRONG with POLYESTER based products....it is GOOD STUFF ("Bondo" and all the jokes about it is what makes people associate polyester with junk...applied correctly it is JUST FINE). FeatherFill is just fine and is something you should consider using. Where people screw up is they apply it wrong, overdo it, have bad work on top or on bottom of it, etc. Applied and used correctly (ie---as the MANUFACTURER instructs you to do) you will be just find with polyester based products.
Now with featherfill, is it safe to let the car sit for a while as with an epoxy sealer, or do you have to shoot a sealer before or after you use it?
Should be fine....you might get a sheet of 3M car masking plastic to loosely drape over the car if there's a bunch of dust and dirt around. A body shop should cut you off a piece for a few bucks...it's real thin and light and unfolds to cover a whole car side to side.
well take the body on a long drive on a open trailer get's most of the stuff out fix any rust before you DP 40,,DP40 or 90 or any of the other colors they have. People say you can do you "bondo" right over DP done it both ways worked for me ! then do you heavy primer or POLY and let it sit for some time and start blocking get nice blocks long and short that about the long and short of it
Wow... lots of good advice here, i'll have to read everything and write down the stuff when I go to the paint store. I wanted to reiterate, the body will be bare metal, it will be completely media blasted. Pglade, does that mean it doesn't have to be etched first b4 epoxy? I've never worked with a completely clean body before, that's why i'm questioning. I've always done over old paint or filler. GOOD stuff, keep it coming. thanks again.!
Media Blasted???--well that raises another step I WOULD NOT SKIP. >You should sand all the media blasted surfaces with a DA Sander w/80 grit sticky back discs. The car will likely come to you with a dark or something-other-than-bright-clean-metal surface. People have had problems with paint adhesion after using some types of media to strip the car (primarily after soda blasting). Whether it's soda or plastic media does not matter to me...I would DA the metal CLEAN once you get it back. >Do this a panel at a time...the bare, as-media-blasted surfaces will resist rust somewhat (except where you touch them with bare hands, etc). This will allow you to move at your own pace and you won't get overwhelmed with trying to put the whole thing in epoxy in one long, drawn out session. >Check with whoever makes your epoxy.....you are doing this right so far so you might as well go all the way........the manufacturer of your epoxy MAY also have a metal conditioner or metal prep they will sell you to treat the bare, DA SANDED CLEAN, CLEAN METAL prior to applying the epoxy. This, of course is ANOTHER STEP but if you take it a panel or two at a time it won't add massive time to the process. Not all manufacturers will recommend a metal prep/conditioner so check with your supplier. >PPG is one of the companies that I think has a metal prep or conditioner to treat the metal prior to epoxy application. >If your manufacturer has/recommends it....THEN FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS FOR APPLYING IT. Not mine, not someone elses....THE MANUFACTURERS. >The metal preps are acid-based so you may ask----"Well why don't I just spray on the (acid) etching primer under the epoxy?". I don't have the technical answer other than the etching (sometimes called "wash primer") primers generally aren't compatible with the epoxies. You'll have to ask the manufacturer or call a chemist. On the other hand...the metal PREPS or CONDITIONERS, if recommended by that particular manufacturer, are compatible. It may be because you wash off the panel after applying the metal prep (with water....YES, I said WATER!..on bare just metal prepped steel--again---read the useage instructions on the bottle, etc TO MAKE SURE!). This washing process probably nuetralizes any acid on the panel whereas the etching primer, not being something you wash off, remains "acidic". Who knowso No: >I can't emphasize it enough.....read and follow the manufacturer's application/mixing/time-between-coats/prep ETC, ETC Instructions. They spent HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF $$$ developing these paints so their instructions are pretty well founded and thought out I would think.
ppg dx1791/1792 is compatible with DP LF primers http://www.ppg.com/refinishftpsite/docs/P-196_DPLF_Epoxy_Primer.pdf you can also use NCP270 which is a direct to metal primer filler http://www.ppg.com/refinishftpsite/docs/P-197 NCP270 271 Primer Surfacers.pdf as is glasurit 801-1552 http://www.basfrefinish.com/cap_dat...hnical Info/English/GTME-eps-und-801-1552.pdf as far as spies 3508 http://performancecoatings.dupont.com/dpc/en/us/html/prodinfo/sh/2007Q2TDS/3508_07.pdf
ok not to nit pick.... but dpx1791.dx1792 is an acid etch primer http://www.ppg.com/refinishftpsite/docs/P-141 DX1791 Self Etching Wash Primer.pdf
epoxy and polyester primers are like glue...they stick to the surface...sand scratch...they are used in various restoration shops and povide excellent corrosion resistance...generally epoxies have no filling ...so you would need to use a 2k primer on top...polyesters offer the best of both worlds...they stick to everything but are a pita to sand because they get so hard....many options out there and you need to start with what brand system you are going to go with..dupont also has Vari prime 615s which is a self etching prime..they also have an epoxy 826s...pick your topcaot system and use their reccomended primer...the "sytems work" and have sold all of them in the past 24 years...one is not really better than the other
I was aware of that, thanks. I'm trying to avoid BRAND SPECIFIC info posted here being taken, passed around, and before you know and it's handed down to the 5th or 6th person, it becomes advice like "yeah go ahead, use some type of etch primer under that epoxy"----without further specific instructions. As you just posted...use what THE MANUFACTURER or an experienced professional paint dealer such as yourself recommends. Nit picking is OK with me. Thanks.
