hi i'm butch,,and i have some questions

hey guys, Kirk here previous owner of butchs car, Car was never a gsx, was repainted and has aftermarket stage 2 badges, Butch is trying to take the research the next step and hopefully find the stage 2 motor that at some point was in the car. the tags are legit just from where and when is the question. I had posted them years back. If any board members can help him out that would be great. Thanks guys!!

 

thank kirt,,maybe the environment here wont be so ****ty now,,,so I called Canada's vintage car search,,no help there,,he also told me GM never made stage 2 parts,,I just told him to look it up,,but he said I can track owners back to 1974,,so I have to call them again,,on there form it will only take 17 # vins,,I'll let you know,,off to the garage to finish the motor,,,running by Saturday,, I hope,,found fuel about 1 mile from me kirt,,,9.49 for 112,,,way cheaper than places down by pgh. raceway that a 20 mile trip which is about 3 gal. with this motor LOL

 

We asked an engine builder for Kenne-Bell back then to take a look at this thread and see if he can shed some light on this.

 

Hi guys, my name is Doug Jones and I assembled engines for KenneBell (formerly Kennedy Bell) Buick performance parts back in the 70's and I do not recall ever seeing any metal specification decals like the one in your post. I contacted a muscle car collector near Chicago who has a number of 1970-1972 GS cars in his stable, including the 1970 Stage 2 equipped car that Dave Benisek and I raced, and said he has never seen such a decal either. He is familiar with and has owned a number of cars prepared by Motion, Nickey etc. and he has bought and sold many cars at Mecum auctions and has seen most everything. We all wish Butch well in his effort to get everyone interested some answers in his search to find out what he has and where it was initiated. I have a friend near LosAngeles whose father purchased a 1970 GS 4-speed car new from a dealer and the ordered Stage 2 package was in the trunk of the car.

 

Welcome Butch-
You've come to the right place to get answers. I am very well versed on this subject. Be very careful what you read in some of the old write-ups about Stage2 info, a lot of it is wrong. Including the article that stated 12 came out of the factory...that is 100% wrong. Just ask the Buick engineer that headed up the Stage2 program, Dennis Manner (he also is the man that designed the Stg2 head among other parts). We now know very accurate facts about this subject.
Only one Stage2 car came out of the factory for a short time and that one wasn't factory built. It was hand built in another department.

There may be up to six 4-bolt blocks made of which you call stage3. That's another misconception, Dennis nor Buick never named anything a Stage3. He calls them experimental pieces.
I personally know where two of those blocks are . The one BPG (or Brad and Duane) has and another that came out of the Kenne-Bell camp that everyone thought ended up in a lake.

Question, The decal on the aircleaner lid...is it embossed or flat/smooth? At least we can tell you for sure if that decal came from Buick or not with your answer.

Guy

 

X2 Larry.

I know this is irrelevant, but Dave Knutsen had the first set of Stage2 emblems made using the lid decal as somewhat of a template for Dave Johnson's car (now mine) and Dave K's car...

 

Hi Butch,

As I said in the second post of this thread - Welcome. Hopefully, in time, you will come to realize that this is not a stinky environment, but, rather the a very supportive forum. I doubt you will find a stronger camaraderie of like minded motorheads on this planet. There are many, many people you will find helpful and supportive with parts, advice, etc. With any group, there are the exceptions.
Nobody here is on a witch hunt, but, we tend to be a rather protective group and most just want to keep the facts from getting "cloudy" and undermining many years of documentation and research on the Buick cars we love.
That said, please try to keep a positive outlook and and we will follow you down the road, where ever it leads and help you with the info you seek.

Matt

 

Wow- Well said!

 

Hey guys, Hey Butch. Just wanted to let you know Butch this board can be your best friend when it comes to your car, these guys know the real facts. Sorry it seemed there was some misunderstanding on your post, any misinformation posted is quick to be set straight. So don't get discouraged a lot of great guys and gals on this board. With that said here is what I think about the car from my research when I owned the car. the stage 2 tag on the air cleaner is embossed its not a repop and its old just like the chrome on the rad support and air cleaner, same with the spec tag on the rad support. The car was built in flint and exported to Canada, I believe the build sheet I got from GM of Canada vintage car services said it went there in Nov. of 71 and a total of only 360 gran sports where exported to Canada in 72, It was a u code 455 [non stage1] with a Muncie m-20, It still had the original GM of Canada 12 bolt rear. One of 84 built in 72. So here is what I think. If this car was from the states with the stage 2 components dealer installed or by Kenne Bell or others, someone on this board would know this car or the tag on the rad support. I think the dealer in Canada did the chrome and stage 2 components for a customer or for the dealership and raced the car. When I changed the rear gears the inside of the yoke looked like the ring gear had scattered at some point. I tend to think the motor may have been blown from racing or was pulled before it came to the states. Just my opinion. Enjoy the car Butch and T A makes a great stage 2 head right from the original print and mix that 112 oct. 5gal. to 12gal. premium and those head gaskets will be fine. Take care best of luck.

Kirk Firestone

 

bump

 

The ta heads are close to Buicks iron but not exact. From the outside you have the extra bolt holes on the exhaust side and they have a better "finished" look. And inside are way different (better flow). the exhaust side is "D" shaped where as the irons are round....

 

Just another fine example of the knowledge on this board. thanks Guy.

 

Any new info on those decals/plates?
Does the car have a/c?

 

I'll talk with Dave K today and ask if he knows anything about stickers / decal plates...:TU:

 

Hi Guys,

Been years since I posted on the site. Glad to be back. I don't have any "fact" information on the sticker on Butch's car. Speculation on my part would be the shop responsible for modifying the original car used these metalized stickers and stamped the pertinent information on that build on the sticker and affixed it on the car. Probably could find these stickers on many other brands of cars, as Buick exclusive shops were far and few between. I don't ever remember seeing that sticker before. I find it very interesting and these are the sorts of questions that get the research started and how we learn and verify actual facts, so we can learn and document more about our cars. Its all good. And I wish Butch luck in the research.

Not to hijack Butch's thread...

Somewhat unrelated but on the Stage 2 emblem subject. The first set of emblems were made by using some molding plastic and hand forming and filing the final product and then coupling the "2" with a factory Stage 1 emblem, with the 1 removed, and having that cast in brass. Made a few sets. One of those sets went onto Guy's "Reynolds" car. To be honest I never really liked the final product of that version. The revised version of emblems was made when I took some photos at the Nationals and Tom Rix sent some more photos of his original hood scoop on the red car. I used those photos to have an outfit make a metal 3D emblem of the "2". Kind of like the current trend of 3D printing. The revised "2" was flatter and looked much better. Heck it should have it was an exact copy of the "2" on the Stage 2 decals and what Buick would have intended... IMHO. Once I had the "2" in hand I melded that with the factory Stage 1 potmetal emblem that I removed the 1 and replaced it with the 2. Then a mold was made and I cast a couple of plastic copies. Sent those to the foundry and had them cast. Once polished and chromed my wife and sat at the kitchen table and painted them. Selling them was another story....

Anyway I think the second version was much improved.

Enjoying the opportunity to contribute.

 

Thanks Dave for posting your info!
So the Stage2 emblems that I have (not on the car though) although not as nice as the second run are kind of rare...thanks for the history lesson!

 

That's one way of looking at it Guy. Optimism is a great thing.
Maybe someday I'll get to see the car again. Been a long time.

 

What I'm having the most trouble with is your "unique" punctuation style. It's impossible to read and I jumped here to the end of the string to tell you so.

You might have something interesting to say but I don't have the energy to try to figure it out.