I need some in getting my 70 cutlass running correctly. Please don't shun me as I need to get this car going so I can pull the motor on my skylark and start the rebuild. Back to the olds, new motor, zero miles other than running it to break in. I just started it today, first time in over a year. It started and ran but lot of valve train noise. The engine has roller rockers which I'm not sure how to correctly adjust. I know they have an allen key surrounded by a 5/8 inch lock nut. Thats one issue. Next issue, while the car was running I took off valve cover and noticed that there was no oil coming from two of the rocker arms. Also in those same locations the pushrod was not rotating. I was able to force air through the pushrods so there is not a clog in it. Do I have bad lifters or something. Also I noticed these two rockers did not move as much as the other rockers as if they were over tightened which brings me to issue number three. Issue number three. while I had motor running I losened up the rocker arms that had no oil come through. The engine RPM's shot up a lot. I turned down the adjustment on the carb but motor was still idling way to fast unless I tightened up the rocker arm. what does this mean. Last whats best way to adjust rockers, engine running, engine off? Im spraying oil all over headers trying to do this with engine running. Allen
Allen, go to http://www.taperformance.com/roller.htm . this gives you A good idea. ands do it with the engine off.
Ok thanks but anyone, what about my extremely high idle speed after losening up rocker arms and lack of oil to certain rockers, that is my main concern. Allen
rockers Allen My guess is that you had way to much preload on some of the rockers,that would also explain no oil on some.When the adjustments are extreme the oil hole in the rocker does'nt line up with the oil hole in the adjustment screw.Remove a rocker and back out the screw entirely and you'll see what I mean. I always adjust in this manner: bring the motor to TDCon the compression stroke,then adjust #1 intake and exhaust, turn motor 90 deg,then adjust the next cylinder in the firing order ,in a buick its #8 (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2) turn 90 deg again and adjust the next one in firing order,in a buick its #4,continue till you've gone thru the whole firing order,takes 2 complete revelutuions of the crank. To adjust, I turn the adjuster out till there a lash,rocker moves with a gap between it and the pushrod,then turn the adjuster back towards the pushrod till the gap or lash just goes away,then continue to turn the adjuster 1/2-3/4 turn,this will preload the lifter the right amount. If the lifter was preoade too much it could've had too much pressure on the lifter and kept the rod from rotating also. gary
With agreement what Gary said. The idle may be to high because the timing is advanced to much. How is the cranking of the engine before it starts? After setting the preload like Gary said check the timing again. If your lucky, there is not any damage to the cam or liftersdue to the excessive preload. only way to tell without tearing the motor apart would be to set a dail indicator on a few rockers for comparasion after the preload is set properly.
need jim walker or someone's help OK jim but how do I establish a baseline. Should I loosen all the rockers. adjust from where they are at now since the engine will fire up? In other words how do I know if the lose ones are "correctly lose" and the tight ones are "correctly tight. Allen
Allen: You are going to have to begin the process all over just as if you never started the engine. First, loosen ALL of the rockers. Then starting with #1 cylinder, follow the above procedure regarding tightening the rockers down and go through the entire firing order. To be on the safe side, I'd go through the whole thing twice just to be sure. Since you really do need to verify that you didn't bend any pushrods or do other damage to the valvetrain anyway, it shouldn't be a big deal to start from the beginning. If it was my motor, I'd go back and verify no damage to the cam lobes, pushrods, valves, rockers, studs, etc. I would check all of the cam lobes to be sure all of the intakes have the exact same lift and duration numbers, the same with the exhaust. Once you have done all of this, rather than starting the car to verify oiling to all of the rockers, I'd suggest using a "pre-oiler" and a heavy-duty drill to verify all of the rockers are now getting oil. You might have to rotate the engine a turn or two so don't get excited if one or more isn't oiling right from the start. Just take your time and write down all of the information as you go so you don't forget something. If you are 'old' like me, writing it down is the only way I know I have done something, or checked something important. I won't go into how I learned to do this but let's just say some lessons are more expensive than others and those that cost the most are learned the best! Let us know how this turns out for you. Phil
Seems to me that adjusting rockers would be the same for any motor given that you have hydraulic lifters and individual studs for each rocker. Sounds like you had a couple riding at the bottom of the plunger in the lifter. (too tight). Whoever assembled the motor didn't pre set them. Once you gave the lifter room to open and close the valves properly the engine gained rpm. The advice above is excellent. If you want to do it with the engine running, loosen the poly lock ( the hex part of your bolt) and back the 5/8 nut off until you can hear, or feel, that rocker clicking. Once it begins clicking, slowly tighten until the clicking stops, then turn 1/2 turn further and retighten the hex bolt. the engine idle is going to change as you do this. Just continue on and set timing and carb once the valve covers are back on. should take about 5 minutes per bank, once you get going. A little messy but quicker.
Ok everyone I checked the pushrods today and some of them are bent, the ones where no oil was going up to the rocker arms. They are bent to the point where I can not pull them up through the heads. So now I know I will have to replace them, I'm going to all just to be safe. Now my questions are: 1. Can I somehow get them out without removing the heads. I figure by pulling the intake I can maybe straighten them some what with some vice grips and then pull them out. Does this sound feasable. 2. What about my lifters, do you think that they may have gotten damaged also and should I replace them. I know it was mentioned to check cam for damage but right now I'm not in the mood to change the cam too. I figure since it was running then the cam should still be good plus there are no road miles just driveway idle time. 3. If worse comes to worse and the cam would need replacement could I change cams with out having to go through the whole degreeing process, ie. mark the cam and timing chain gear and maybe set a mark somewhere on the surrounding block area. 4. I am currently using mondello hardened pushrods and their jm-22-25 cam (.512 intake .523 exhaust 230 degress intake 236 degrees exhaust) I think the pushrods are stock length and will assume I can keep this size since only two on the passenger side of motor got bent due to over tightening rocker arm. I also have crane or rhoads lifters in it. So please make a recommondation, what brand lifter, length pushrod, etc. Thanks, Allen
If you remove the intake you should be able to drop them into the intake valley to remove them. If not, you can turn them so the bowed side is up and straighten them enough with a hammer. I would be more concerned about bent valves and broken springs. The cam should have held up OK. Depending on the type of seal and spring retainer you have there could be some damage there. If this car had stock pistons the valves are probably not hurt. The fact that it ran, at all, makes me think the rockers were just tighted down too far. Check with your cam manufacturer to see if machining of head is required with that application. Olds motors have those rotating spring retainers that dont leave a lot of room for more camshaft. You definitely need to do the static preset of your next set of rockers. Check the bottoms of your lifters for dents.
Allen: It sounds like you are getting more than a little tired of this whole thing. My first suggestion would be to take a couple of days if you don't NEED the car right away and just forget the problem for a short time. On to your questions. Q: Can you remove the pushrods without removing the heads as you suggested? A: Probably. Things to consider: Do you have guideplates installed? IF so, at the least you'll have to remove them to avoid any (further) damage to them. Be prepared to pickup little pieces of pushrod from the lifter valley and prevent them from falling into the bottom of your engine in case any actually break. Q: Damage to lifters? A: I'd have to guess that if the pushrods bent that much, it's a good bet that one or more lifters is damaged. Again, if it was me, I'd just go the safe route and replace them all. Q: Degree, or not to Degree, that is the question. A: Sure, you can always install a cam without degreeing it properly. The real question is, is it worth it to you to go through the process? Bear in mind that ALL parts have some amount of production tolerance, including the cam lobes as phased on the blank, the dowel pin and gear holes as phased against the lobes, the holes drilled into the cam gear itself for locating the gear on the cam, the timing marks on both the cam and crank gear and their location on the gears in reference to the actual location of the lobes and the keyway milled into the crank. Granted it might not be much. But it could add up to more than one or two degrees off.. This can lead you to have a cam that is not producing the full potential power and drivability it otherwise might. If you replace the cam, even though it is an absolute pain in the butt, degree the cam for all of the reasons you did it in the first place, particularly if you are reusing the timing set now in the motor. As for not removing the heads, I offer the following to consider: It sounds like to me that there were one or more cylinders where there was effectively a solid lifter cam and not enough clearance for everything to operate without contacting each other. Normally, this means the valves and the pistons were hitting each other. Since those pushrods were bent so badly, it appears to me that pulling the heads to inspect the piston tops for nicks, dents and possibly even holes plus the valves themselves for straightness and possible chipping or outright breakage of the head of the valve would be good insurance. Once the intake is off, basically all that needs to be done is to unbolt the headers (yes it is a pain on an Olds) and remove the headbolts. You'll be out a set of head gaskets and maybe header gaskets but you will absolutely know for sure that either everything is still in good shape, or what other damage might be hiding and just waiting for the right time to come back and bite you. Plus, you won't have to get the vice grips to help you pull out those bent pushrods..... I'm sorry you don't live closer to Reno. I'd be happy to come over and help out if you wanted it. I wish I had better suggestions for you. Maybe I am being overcautious about all of this but after spending all that money to get your engine ready to fire up, it would seem a true shame to have something hidden to come back on you. I guess after spending about 30 years working on cars for fun, the first eight or so to feed my family, I got to where having "come-backs" was something I hated more than anything, unless it was taking a short cut that ended up costing me more than starting from a known, good base. I managed to burn my own car to the ground, literally, because I didn't use a better quality oil pressure gauge feed line, put a grommet in the hole leading to the dash board or verify everything worked like it should after I thought I was done. At least, I think that is what happened. The car was burned so badly and suffered so much damage from the heat, nothing was left under the hood except the actual metal parts, all of which either melted completely or at least partially, excepting only the cast iron bits and pieces. Let me know what you decide to do with your car.
Ok I will pull the intake this weekend and see what I can do about getting pushrods out. And yes the motor was running even with the bent pushrods, no oil was coming through those rockers but they were still moving up and down although not as high as the others. Since there was no backfiring or fumes coming out of any weird places I would assume there was no piston damage. The motor did actually run real smooth and reved nice only thing was the noise like a rocker arm hitting inside the valve cover but now I see it was pushrod clackity clacking. Will let everyone know what I discover and thanks for everyone's input, you guys are great. Allen
Ok, I pulled the intake yesterday and found only one bent pushrod. I was able to drop it down and bend it out, was amazed at how easily they bend (3/8" at that). The lifter and everything else looks good. By the way any know what stock length is on Olds 455 pushrod? I measured my pushrod which appears to be 9 and 14/16 inches. If my option for replacement pushrods are 9.7, 9.8, or 9.9 what is the length that I need ( not sure how to convert 9 and 14/16" to one of these lenghts). Thanks. Allen
