I think I know the Answer but I don't want to hear it

We had a very nice benefit this past weekend in Mesa Arizona for the police department in the city where about 200 or so cars came out and paid an entry fee to assist with some local law enforcement programs. The morning of the show I pulled the car out and cleaned her up to get her ready. When I fired her up the noise attached is what I heard.

Now my first thought is that I have to have a spun bearing, In my complete disappointment/Stupidity I allowed the car to continue to run. After about 15 minutes the noise went away, and the oil pressure was steady at 40 pounds, So I shifted my thought process to possible a torque converter bolt or possible a cracked fly wheel.

I have not built up the nerve to jack the car up yet and check the torque converter, but I am so hoping that this is what the problem is. Now I am not experienced enough to diagnose this problem from just listening to it, and I am hoping you guys can help steer me in the right direction so I can be as cost efficient as possible. I have already calculated both of the scenarios that I think it may be and right now if I have to replace the bearings and crank the kit from TA is $385, and while Im in the motor I more likely then not will go ahead and change the cam to the TA 413 from the TA 284-88h. That I will bring my total to about $700 bucks with me doing most of the work myself. Now since I have never done this before can someone tell me what the cost of having my block and pistons check to see what the bore of the block is and the size of the pistons. I was not involved in the original build of the motor and the shop that completed it did not provide me with any of the paperwork. The block is allegedly 40 over as well as the pistons, but none of this can be verified. The pistons have nice size valve releases cut in to them so I am not as concerned about the piston to valve clearance in going up to the 413 even though this is something that I will be having the shop check as well.


Can someone ballpark the estimate of checking the block and crank for me, cleaning it back up and possible putting the bottom end back together?

When i figure out how to upload the video I will attach it or if I can e-mail it to someone and have them attach it I will.

 

A long shot,but I've seen this before.With engine running,place your hand on the front of the pan,the rod bolt nuts may be scraping the pan,especially if you have ARP bolts.You'll feel it if they are hitting.
gary

 

Any Idea of what I am looking at to have the block checked, and possibly the bottom end button back up if I don't do it myself? I really need to know of the pistons are 40 over, and that the block is ok before I invest any more money into it.

 

Sounds like the same story I had in the 90's. Sounded like a spun bearing, but turned out being rod bolts hitting the pan.

 

A friend mine had a broken factory windage tray

 

pull the belts off and fire it up to see if the noise goes away. my 430 made an awful noise that sounded like a rod knock, turned out the pulley wiggled loose from the harmonic balancer. found that out when i started pulling the motor out.

 

Put the video on youtube or send it to me... PM me for my (unlimited size up-download) address if you want to do that.

 

I have posted the video on You tube the link below should get you to the video. Let me know what you guys think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NuxG_b92hU

 

Even with video sometimes sounds come through wrong but that sounds deep, as in bearing deep. Whats the oil pressure doing now? First things first, it costs nothing to pull tranny cover and check TC bolts, but its doubtful. Flexplate cracks/bolts usually click, same with pulley cracks. Loose pulley would be fairly obvious. Can't see rod bolts deciding to hit one morning unless you've never run engine before. Have you pulled the rocker covers off, could something be hitting the cover?? Have you checked the oil for metal (just pull plug and drain a quart into a glass jar or even pull dipstick after running)???

Its odd that the oil pressure is staying up as the video note says. Have you checked the filter?

Hope I'm wrong and its something simple...

 

Check the following in this order:
Cut open the oil filter and look for bearing material.
Check Torque Converter bolts
Feel oil pan to see if rods are hitting
Use heater hose held up to your ear, with other end try and pinpoint location of noise

 

I checked the torque converter bolts all three were tight, The fly wheel does not appear to be cracked in any location that I can visible see while it still attached to the motor. I fired it up again just for @#$% and giggles today, and the noise is still present. I placed my hand on the oil pan and could not feel any thing, I took the valve cover on the driver side where I believe I hear the noise the most, and nothing. At this point I am just throughly disgusted, and I feel like puling my hair out. I just spent $1200 hundred on the heads about 2 months ago, and now this.

Now that Im done sulking, I have already pulled al of the accessories off the front of the motor radiator,shroud fan, alternator power steering pump, disconnected the torque converter, took all of the tranny housing bolts out, motor mounts, header bolts, and pretty much have her ready to be pulled out. Can some one ball park me the machine cost of having the block check, and vatted, along with having the cam bearings knocked out and reinstalled. And then having the shop put the bottom end back together.

 

I would guess about $2500 for a bottom end rebuild.

 

I was truly not expecting to hear $2500 the crank kit is only 400 dollars , the cam bearings from TA I believe are less then $100 bucks, So am I to assume there is $2000 dollars just in machine work, and putting the crank and bearings back together?

 

Do you know your rod and main bearing clearances?? I posted this awhile back but this might be applicable here: Heres my experience with rod and main bearind clearances: the first 455 I rebuilt for the street I had the clearances set too .003 to .0035 on the rod and main bearings and used stock cam bearings. A year or so later I was pulling the motor back out due to a spun #7 rod bearing and melted front cam bearing. I did some research and found out that from .0017 to .002 was where the clearances should have been for a street motor. So I had the crank ground(again)to .002 on the rods and mains and it has lasted for roughly 60,000 miles with absolutely no issues. I reused the stock timing gear cover but heres the parts I used to help the oiling system:

1. TA Teflon coated cam bearings.
2. TA adjustable oil pressure regulator.
3. TA oil pump booster plate.
4. 5/8 oil pick up tube.
5. Standard oil pump..not the hi-volume oil pump!!!
6. Mechanichal oil guage(mandatory with a 455 Buick!!!).


Nineyears and 60,000 miles later using Valvoline Racing SAE 30 oil the 455 sits @ about 20 PSI @ 650 RPM hot idle and 65 PSI @ 2800 on the interstate.

If u have to take it to a machine shop make sure they know Buicks.

 

Is that relevant when a stock crank, and bearings are going to be used? Even if my crank is reusable I dont think I will be reusing it as so I dont run into exactly what you are describing. I will be going to TA once I have the crank out of the car and see what the cost will be to have them do the machining, and i will also be getting all of my parts from them.

I to run the valvoline race oil I have the booster plate with the stock oil pump, i plan on getting the teflon bearings as well. The pickup 5/8 tube is something I will also be investing in. If those clearance numbers are correct and TA is out of my ball park I will be sure to let what ever shop know what clearances I need. For My info is there any reason why the Crank kit that TA sells would need any additional clearances?? Or would I be ok installing the kit right out of the box?

 

TA is that close?? You lucky.....!! Go there get a quote, they will be reasonable and they will know what to do. I only wish.

Let us know what you find.

 

They are 15 minutes from me, and i have been in the shop several times while I was putting my car back together. i only hope they are within my budget, and are able to get the motor back to me in a reasonable amount of time.

I feel naked without my car, and my patience will have to be tempered by my budget. Tim and Mike are awesome and have helped my over the last few years so If I have to wait I will have to seriously consider sitting on my hands.

 

If you don't listen to anything else, listen to this:

I would pay above and beyond to have those guys so close and be able to help you out in person. They ARE the Buick guys. I am currently going through a clusterf**k of biblical proportions right now due to a machine shop, so let them help you out. We should all be so lucky!! :beer

 

I agree, and at this point I am simply telling myself that my car is going to have to be down as long as it take me to come up with the money to have them do it for me. For sure the block, bottom end,and cam& cam bearings. As well as the oil mods. I can put the heads back on as well as the rocker arm and intake myself.


If it takes me a few months to get the money together them so be it. I made the mistake once by allowing a shop other then TA to do it, and I will not make that mistake again.

Sorry to hear about you machine shop nightmare, and trust me when I say I have been there, and apparently I am still paying for it now.

 

Good. Let us know what you find out...