Hi folks, Is the engine coded TA (correct 71 Riv GS) a Stage 1 engine ? I ask, as I don't know which initial timing from a 71 book should be used: 4 deg or 10 deg ?: On the label under the hood, it is written 4 deg...... Any advice ?
George, The Stage I engine is de TS coded engine. TA is the right engine code for a model year 1971 Riviera GS. Forget about the stuff written in chassis manuals and check out this thread: Power timing your Buick V8 :Comp:
You can look for the distributor ID numbers on the outer ring of your unit but for now be concerned about the total timing. Review Larry's timing thread on this Board.
Thats a good question. My understanding has always been that the TA engine has the larger valve heads same as stage 1 (which is fact) but didn't have the same cam or distributor as a stage 1 therefore the timing would be standard 455 at 4 degrees. I have no facts or documentation handy to back this up so it would be good to verify it through someone else who does. When I had my 71 GS I never checked my distributor to verify what specs it was set up for and the tag was long gone. According to the chassis service manual the mechanical advance on the stage 1 distributor starts at a much lower RPM than the standard engine around 700-1000 and vs 1400-1600RPM.
Thanks for all the answers. In the meantime, I was checking also the document: Buick 1971 Engineering Features and AMA Specs GM Corp , on page 34 it looks like they named Stage 1 only for GS models, while for Riviera GS, something like "higher-powered version of 455". Therefore no mention of Stage 1 for Riviera GS. Then I will agree that Stage 1 name is only for TS coded engine (1971), and accordingly to the manual book, for TA engine, 4 deg. initial timing should be used. Of course, adjusting the timing to get the best performance, is something else. I will check the link - thanks a lot. My initial question was related more how to read the book , and to know if Riv71GS TA coded engine, can be named Stage 1 engine. I understand that NOT - am I right ? Finally, two more things: 1. In the document above, there is also information about unleaded gas for these engines - I saw many times discussions, if fuel additives should be used. Looks like not necessary. 2. in 73, Buick has excluded "high performance engine" from GS package for Riviera. This engine could be ordered separately, under "Stage 1" option name ...... - Confusing - isn't it ?
Your fellow ROA-member (#650) Chris Wolfe published a book about the 1963-1973 Rivieras, this is what he writes about the model year 1971 Riviera Stage I:
In fact, this is the first time when I hear about Stage 1 script in Riviera 71 GS..... never read this before. Never saw any picture of the car with that. Actually my opinion is: Riv 71 GS is not Stage 1 engine. If it would be, the initial timing accordingly to the manual, should be 10 deg, as for Stage 1 engine. ROA technical advisor also informed me that it should be 4 deg. On the label under the hood, I can see 4deg. Initially my Rviera was purchased by Buick dealer as his private car. Later he sold it to his employee. Now she is mine - I'm 3rd owner, after two automotive guys. I was supposing that the label is correct one, not repro with possible wrong data on it. "Modified High Performance 455" was available only in Riviera GS and optionally in Centurion for that year, while Stage 1 was for Buick GS. Info from BCA #5168 member: http://forums.aaca.org/members/centurion/ The 1971 Buick Facts Book indicates the following horsepower ratings for the three different 455 engines: Gross Horsepower - Standard, 455-4: 315 - High Perf, 455-4: 330 - Stage 1, 455-4: 345 Gross Torque: - Standard, 455-4: 450 - High Perf, 455-4: 455 - Stage 1, 455-4: 460 Engine codes: - Standard, 455-4 TR - High Perf, 455-4: TA - Stage 1, 455-4: TS
The search for photos is very easy, but if it's the real deal.... o No: (One should think that the original owner will exactly know if that badge on the grille is original or not)
Erik, can you provide a link to the info from your previous post ? I think saw this article somewhere already, but did not noticed Stage1 badge and decal. Maybe becauose I was thinking in this times that Riv GS has Stage 1 engine, so was looking OK for me... Was trying to search Hemmings for that article, but no luck. BTW: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?136837-Stage-1-parts-on-a-71-Riviera
There was never a stage 1 script in 1971 for the Riv. I'll need to check my copy of the book but if the highlighted quote above is in direct reference to a 71 that is an error. When Chris did that book there were many little known facts about the Rivs so getting accurate information at the time was difficult. There was a factory Stage 1 option for the 1973 Riv GS that included the grille emblem. Note "option". The GS did not come standard with the Stage 1. The picture above with the Stage 1 emblem on the 71 is not factory correct. It was added by the owner. The stage 1 terminology will likely be a topic of confusion for many years to come. The stage 1 engine/option is most widely known from the Skylark body cars. These engines never made it into a Riv in their exact makeup as was in the Skylark. The Stage 1 option for the Riv in 1973 was its own version and not same as Skylark cars of previous years. Since the 71 Riv GS TA code eng had the bigger valves, to some that qualifies it as a stage 1 and to me having the stage 1 heads is the key element. The distributor is simple to modify to match the stage 1 as is getting a hotter cam. So in a sense its kind of like splitting hairs. Obviously in 73 the Stage 1 option can clearly and accurately be called Stage 1 because thats how it was marketed and sold. Buick did not market the 71/72 Riv GS cars as stage 1 engines even though they were close to the famed Skylark 455 GS engine. Clear as mud huh. Forgot to mention for those interested in authenticity the air cleaner decal in pic above is not correct either. It was also added by the owner. The 71 Riv GS chrome lid had no decal.
Copy & paste a sentence + key words from the quote in my previous post into your Google search engine: Click here :Comp: Here it's the 3rd result that comes up :TU:
The most important question to ask in relation to initial timing is, does the engine still have the distributor it left the factory with? Lots of things can happen in 41 years, and if you have not owned the car from new, and know it's history, you must check. 1112077 is the distributor number for a 1971 455 with automatic transmission. If the engine has a replacement distributor in it, the stock timing specs go out the window. That's why I advise just setting the total timing to 30-34*. If you do that, the initial timing will be what it has to be, for that distributor, and that total timing. The only time an engine runs at initial timing is when it is at idle. Timing changes the instant you step on the gas. BTW, have a look at the timing specs for that 1112077 distributor. It has a maximum mechanical advance of 16-20* @ 3000 RPM. If you have this distributor, setting the initial timing to 4* means the total timing at wide open throttle will be from 20-24*. That will compromise full throttle performance. You could easily run 10* initial or more with that distributor. I would definitely limit the vacuum advance canister to about 10* though.
Erik, I know how to use Google and I was already trying to find it before, but no success. This is why I've asked you for a direct link to the article, if you have it. For your information, this is what I get on 3rd position: http://www.hemmings.com/users/179039/ride/7444.html 1st is not that one, second, and others either not...... Maybe Google is serving different results depends on the country where request is coming from ? But I was also directly on Hemmings page, trying their search engine, with no results .. :-( Larry, thanks for the great article regarding timing - everything is clear for me, especially that I'm tuning my engine since two days every afternoon with my son , so we've tested already your advices practically. However, I did not checked distributor number - will do it today Jason, I agree with your description.
George looks got it figured out <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> the Riviera GS 455 in 71/72 TA/WA code was not the same engine as and A body GS stage 1 Engine TS/WS code. In fact if you look at HP ratings you'll find the A body GS 455 engine matches the base Riviera 455. Technically the 71/72 Riviera GS and Centurion 455 Heavy Duty was not refereed as Stage !, just Riviera GS, or Centurion HD. and the only way to know for sure is to have documentation and.or remove the heads. ( I once owned a 70 Estate Wagon - that had the Stage ! heads) The Riviera GS engine and the (Skylark) GS Stage 1 both used 1/8" oversize intake and exhaust valves. While the Riviera GS/Stage 1 engine had its own cam with more lift than a standard Riv 455, giving more low end power (71 Riv GS Camshaft pn - 1384664 the A Body Skylark GS/Stage 1 camshaft had significantly more duration for more top end power. Supposedly the A body cam, was deemed to run the engine to rough for use a Riviera , The Rivs did use the heavy valve springs, also Riviera GS did not use the special carb, distributor the A bodies did - dont be confused by all the stuff put out by the association stating 71/72 Riviera are stage 1 -- some by the "expert " even says its TS - - its not seperate post coming on that chris wolf book - the car pictured in hemmings I just want to double check a couple of things first. initial timing by book is 4 for both ,i 4-6 degrees works best for standard riv - 6-8 for Riviera GS -- this Is what I would go with later especial since your dist is not stock but a an A body stage 1 . the following info came from an article - Dennis Manner, Senior Buick Engineer The camshaft used in 1971-72 Riviera GS and 73-74 Riviera Stage 1 engines was different than the Skylark GS Stage 1 cam and also different than the standard 455 engine cam. It provided more torque but a little less HP than the Skylark GS Stage 1 cam more appropriate for the heavier Riviera car. It can be identified by 3 machined grooves behind the front bearing journal. [FONT="][/FONT] Camshaft Part Exh. Lift Exh. Duration Int. Lift Int. Duration Cam Spacing Timing Advance 455 Riviera GS 71/72 1384664 .457" 322* .410" 297 118 124 455 Riviera GS stage 1 73/74 1384664 .457" 322* .410" 297 118 124 A body Stage 1 camshaft used in 1969 400 and 1970-1974 455 Stage 1 (Skylark) GS Engines. This camshaft was identified by a single machined groove in the shank of the camshaft behind the front bearing journal 455 Stage 1 (A body) 1383853 .454* * 340* .407" 316" 115 II8' The standard 455 engine as used in Skylark GS, Electra, Riviera, Wildcat or LeSabre models was the same engine (including camshaft) in any given model year. Different camshafts were used in this engine in different years for non lead fuel/low compression engines in 1971 and later changes for fuel economy improvement Camshaft Part Exh. Lift Exh. Duration Int. Lift Int. Duration Cam Spacing Timing Advance 71 455 Stnd 1237665 .455" 340 .390" 293 117 118 72/74 455 stnd I239629 .449" 331 .390" 293 118 123 75/76 455 stnd 1246739 .405" 306 .390" 293* 113 113 ---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 PM ---------- that is number for stage 1 dist - second set of numbers should be year - letter for month - and day of the month example <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 3D18 ..........: 1973 (3), April (D), 18 day of month</pre> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->[FONT="]A January[/FONT][FONT="] B February C March D April E May F June G July H August J September K October L November M December Note: The letter 'I' is not used The number is the day of month[/FONT] ---------- Post added 05-19-2012 at 12:06 AM ---------- Previous post was 05-18-2012 at 10:49 PM ---------- Regarding the Hemmings pictures and the pictures in Chris wolf book - same car it owned by Bob Bonto, ROA Senior tech adviser for boattails , owner since - he claims it to be a completely original -- in chris' book it had an after market air cleaner with the chrome top and stage 1 decal -- in hemmings and on his registry page http://boattail-riviera-by-buick.co...ion=vinsearch&doSearch=Sort/Search&q=1H923703 it has stock air cleaner with that stage1 decal , He claims it has always been there - Most others donot have that decal - should just be plain chrome for GS - 455 decal for stnd Rivs.the stage 1 tags on front and back that are in chris wolfs book and the hemmings article -There are no mention of these in any GM documentation - and as i said above - Riviera GS is not reffered to as stage1 in GM documentation or advertising (unless you in the ROA). they do not belong and he has removed them. The car also has WC1 X5 Wide rocker appearance moldings , which were not available until 72 - I've asked Bob about this a couple - as his is 100% original and have not gotten a reply. he has also not provided any code numbers, and has told there are no factory markings on the chassis they put on a rotisserie and removed the factory undercoating so they are gone. the only pictures can be seen on his page - some finishs under hood are different from other originals - in the registry - but he has told are correct it never been redone the others inclding mine are wrong - "I ordered new it in April 1971 and took delivery in May 1971. It has never been in any snow. It has been garaged it's entire life. All the chrome and paint are original. It has not been restored. It has been featured in several publications. As of Oct 31, 2010, it only has 19,400 original miles." his original window sticker is there also does not X5 (have to be logged member to see that) I have chris book also - lots of errors and miss conceptions in there lets start with th obivious ones 1971 Riviera GS 455 - part of option package y49 a9 included <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->[FONT="]Riviera G.S. Option-455 Cu. In. Modified High Performance V8 Engine W/4 Bbl. Carb. Stnd. on. Comp. Non-Lead Fuel. Chrome Covered Air Cleaner, Performance axle W/Positive Traction Differential, 2 Stripe White Wall Tires, Firm Ride And Handling Suspension, & Specific Ornamentation.(GS emblems on fenders ) As we already saw IS NOT a STAGE ! - Even though Bob and other ROA members like to say it is. The book 9eriks extract says the Riviera Gs had is own version of the 455: It did goto above it was the 330 hp Riviera GS version not the 345 hp stage 1,, all Boattails have dual exhaust with 2 1/4' pipes , the Riviera GS included -NO bigger pipe diameter (bobs may be 2 1/2 - check video of Bobs at the riviera rescue mission on john farlins members page - its like brand new) - I dont what the or where the rubber baffles in the front fenders like the vinyl side Those vinyl roofs may have been been installed by dealerships - but do not show any in approved part listing or advertising that I seen yet. infact if you look in the dealership section of the library you will see drawing of how side molding was to be applied to all models - but None on Riviera -(dealership pubs [/FONT]1971 Buick Facts Pocket Binder - Salesmen's Guide and I think 1971 Buick Salesmens Feature[FONT="] books) another member and AACA judge has tried to convince only black was approved for Riviera. Max trac isn't mentioned until 72 -was available in 71- The vents in trunk leaking thru the vent sounds good , but they dont and its seems mor 72 have rusted out trunks and lids than 71's - other pubs say they removed because under certain conditions (like in traffic with a window cracked or the fan non operational ) exhaust gas could come in - never experienced it myself . In the 73 section there are the some cars with both front hood ornaments which owners insist are originals I'm sure someone at GM 2 r symbols a few inches apart was a good idea and I'm not going thru the rest just say its as accurate as the 71. I dont use this as reference and have many other errors in ROA publications and web site - many of which I sent in updates for before I got of tired being ignored and gave up due to senior member lack of co-operation/protectionism. [/FONT] ---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ---------- YOU ARE RIGHT Yes it can be really confusing - especially when some the GM books dont agree with each other -- ran into that with trans codes sounds like got into the Boattail regsitry and found the answers. -- Yes 71 engines are designed for no-lead fuels, and have hardened valve seats so not lead subsitute additives required -- they are for 1970 and before to protect valve seats -- octane boost is something else -- in canada we can only around 87 -89 octane owners manual recommenadtion (page 83) is for 91 octane http://boattail-riviera-by-buick.co...s/1971 buick riviera owners manual/index.html ---------- Post added at 01:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 AM ---------- Jason You need to write an article for the riview -maybe they will accept it from you I got told it was a Stage 1 Bob says so.. ---------- Post added at 01:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 AM ---------- Jason You need to write an article for the riview -maybe they will accept it from you I got told it was a Stage 1 Bob says so..
That is the Stage1 distributor. It has 20-24* of mechanical advance. If you power time it to 34*, you should end up with 10* or more of initial timing.
Here is the Dennis Manner article and a list of distrib id numbers <tt>1970 </tt> <tt>350 2-V (and low compression 4-V) 1111986</tt> <tt>350 4-V (Hi compression) 1112006</tt> <tt>455 4-V 1111984</tt> <tt>455 4-V (Stage 1) 1111962</tt> <tt>1971 </tt> <tt>350 2-V,4-V (MT) 1112006</tt> <tt>350 2-V,4-V (AT) exc.Lesabre 1112037</tt> <tt>350 2-V,4-V (AT) Lesabre 1112080</tt> <tt>455 4-V (MT) 1112016</tt> <tt>455 4-V (AT) 1112077</tt> <tt>455 4-V (Stage 1) 1112016</tt> <tt>1972 </tt> <tt>350 1112109</tt> <tt>455 1112100</tt> <tt>455 (Stage 1) 1112016</tt> <tt>1973 </tt> <tt>350 1112086</tt> <tt>455 1112087</tt>
I have another spare 455 engine here, and there is distributor numbered 1112104 7F13. However, it is already converted to Mallory E-spark: http://prestoliteperformance.com/Po..._e-spark_conversion_kit_1957-74_gm_61001M.pdf It has also yellow springs for mechanical advance system. I will use it and I will see which runs better. Thank you guys for your help and tips.
Hi Folks, so, after some time, here goes the update.... The story is weird .... Generally: engine was not running as it should, or maybe as I expect from Riv 71 GS . Anyway, something was wrong. Based on my experience and knowledge, I had a feeling the problem is in timing, but at the end, it was not related to the distributor, at least not to the one I had initially with no. 1112016 ..... Problem was in MaxTrac - as we know, the MaxTrac system is delaying the timing in case of traction problems. In my case - to have more fun - the MaxTrac was working properly - sometimes, and going wild ... sometimes. When MaxTrac was going wild, it was delaying timing so much, that the spark - and so the ignition - had place when exhaust valve was open. The result was the muffler was exploding.... I lost left muffler, and after replacement, again both mufflers - left and right in the same time ..... 3 mufflers lost in total - you can not believe, what noise it makes Before I figured out, the MacTrac is a problem, I've replaced the distributor to the one I've mentioned in previous post: I have another spare 455 engine here, and there is distributor numbered 1112104 7F13. Looks like this one would be more accurate for Riviera. However, it is already converted to Mallory E-spark: http://prestoliteperformance.com/Por..._gm_61001M.pdf It has also yellow springs for mechanical advance system. I will use it and I will see which runs better. and this was yet another problem - looks that Mallory E-spark module was damaged as well ..... after approx 20 miles run, when E-spark module get heat (not engine, but the module), the timing was out of control. First symptom was the engine was running like the high tension wires order would be mixed..... Then it was not possible to drive it anymore, then engine was stopped and no way to start it up. Just wait 30-60 minutes, then you could go another 20 miles or so ..... Don't ask me how I've found out to switch off MaxTrac and put back the good, old mechanical distributor 1112016, with new points ..... Now she runs like a dream .... with new mufflers, of course :grin: And now it's time to fix MaxTrac
its good you figured it out - bad its the Max Trac the system was not good when new very hard to find parts for - you get used and will know if good or not. some info in manual but once you get to sensors and controller only info is gap and Felt tip ) pretty good change that has broken down to far and sensor needs to be replaced or gap adjusted / or controller has gone bad - its a non servicable unit - but like newer GM computers - could be solder joints have failed - would check that if wheel sensor felt looks good - as far as trans sensor have no ideas to tell if it good or not - other check and clean all connections. another thing to watch for is you A.i.R its diverter valve can interact with the max Trac and cause backfiring will send you email with extracts from all three years (actually it next months registry member download) 73 chassis extract has a bit better diagnoses info than 71/72 - and gives the gap for if felt is missing the rest is articles many of are misinformation published at the time - calling things like traction control .or just advertising info.
