I'm about half way through swapping out my TH400 to a TH200-4R in my '69 Sport Wagon 400, just thought I'd share with y'all/document for any future swappers. I picked up the trans from the local pick-n-pull for $150. It was in like a 1984 Olds 88 and seemed to be in good condition visually with clean fluid. Be sure to grab the torque converter, dipstick, TV cable and TV bracket off the carb. If you get it out an olds, the starter cutout on the flywheel cover is on the wrong side, so get a flywheel cover from a Buick or something else with the starter on the passenger side. I also snagged the wire connecter on the side of the trans and cut the wires about a foot down. I didn't grab the crossmember, but probably should've to see if it would bolt up better or not. I read about how "easy" this swap is on various other sites, but had my doubts since nobody outlined it well swapping from a long tail TH400 to the short little 200-4R, and nobody covered a Sport Wagon, only regular A bodies (TH350s is supposed to be a very direct swap). For the TV mount, we simply cut a square out from the Olds TV mount where the cable attaches to, and welded it to the original/stock throttle cable bracket. I have a TA SP1 intake and this was the easiest way to do it because a big chunk of metal on the intake blocks just about any other way to do it. I bought a Summit TV cable kit for Edelbrock carbs...pretty easy to hook up, but had to use a different style throttle attachment that came with the kit instead of the ball style throttle attachment and also had to move the throttle return spring around towards the front of the carb instead of towards the rear. I'm not gonna lie, the TV cable portion will require a little creativity and bracketry to get right, nothing seems to be perfectly bolt on using an Edelbrock, or Holley style carb. I discovered my old flywheel was cracked severly, so I ordered a new SFI flexplate and put that in. I'm also going to be installing an X-pipe setup during this process too. The trans mounting needed some attention. Using the stock TH400 crossmember and mount was easy enough, but the holes on the frame for the crossmember were about an inch too far back. There is another 'set' of holes in the frame, but they are way too far forward, so I ended up having to drill one new hole on each side and utilize the rear hole of the forward mount position (if that makes sense) on the frame. This mounted the trans perfectly with no undue stress on the rubber mount. The only problem is that you can't access the rear most pan bolt on the trans without removing/moving the crossmember, oh well. Next is ordering a new aluminum driveshaft from Shaft Masters now that the trans is mounted and I can get the measurements, wiring up the reverse lights and TCI lockup kit for installing the 200-4R into older cars, and hooking up all the other attachments (cooler hoses and such), oh and installing the X-pipes. I'm going to use V-bands which I highly recommend for installing the X pipe, so that removing the exhaust is much easier when the trans blows up and I don't have to buy new collector gaskets each time too. All in all, this honestly is a fairly easy swap, I thought it would be harder. Once the car is rigged and running I will see how long the junkyard tranny lasts before either buying another for $150, or saving for a built one to drop in. I'm anxious to see how much the gas mileage goes up. Oh and probably one of the coolest things I've ever done was start the car up with no trans and open headers, I've never seen an engine rev so quickly...one slight tap on the throttle and it hits the limiter at 6000 rpm, too cool.
Thanks! (Re: Installing a 200-4R in a '69 Sport Wagon 400) Dear Andy and V-8 Buick Braggin' Wagon fans, Thanks for taking the time to document your tranny swap.:TU: Not exactly the same task for my trusty wagon, but I'm collecting all the info I can for when her turn will come. Cheers, Edouard :beer
Following along for when I do the swap on the Electra. My biggest concern is finding a place to make the super long driveshaft that I'll need. How much longer does your new driveshaft have to be?
So far it looks like it's about a 7 inch difference...so yeah, pretty long driveshaft now, but I would assume no different than a Sport Wagon with a TH350 (did they ever even come with that?). I'm just thankful I don't have the two piece driveshaft with CV joint and carrier bearing going thru the frame like the Rivieras had, that's a nightmare for stuff like this. Haven't had much progress lately other than trying to get the proper trans filter for it and starting the TCI converter lockup kit swap on the 200-4R, seems pretty straight forward. I'm waiting for pay day to order the shaft and finish re-doing the exhaust with the X pipe.
HMMM... Looking at a TSB for 71 vs 70 driveshafts, A Wagon with a TH350 trans should have a length of 60 inches center to center on the u-joints. Doen't even list for a TH400 trans in a wagon. Possibly because they dropped the 400 engine for 1970? At least, on the 70-72 models the swap was easier because the TH350 and TH200-4r are the same length with same sline count, so all you needed was to swap in a 350 shaft. At least I THINK your length would be the same...Chassis stayed the same on the wagon (68-72), didn't it?
I just completed (july 10,2012) the 2004R swap in my 65 Sportwagon it was easier than you think, to handle the TV cable issue you took the hard way. The olds TV cable, and throttle cable bracket works perfect and can be easily adapted to the edlebrock carb as well. I used the convertor lock up switch from a 87 monte carlo, works perfect, as well as the brake light switch from a cruise control unit handles the unlock when brake applied, I wired a light after the convertor switch so i can see if the trans has 12 volts and actually unlocks when the vacumn drops and comes back on when vacume restored. I have used the same set up in a previous car and it works great. I also installed cruise control as well as a painless 7 circuit fuse panel, I had to fabricate frame mounts because the 65 does not have provisions for the TH400, as far as cross member I just notched the original one for the long trans pan. I love the swap and so does my car, the swap i will do again on many more cars Ken
Well, it probably would be the same as a TH350 driveshaft from a 71-72 SportWagon, several years ago I swapped the 8.2 10 bolt with a '72 8.5" 10 bolt posi and when I did that I had to have the driveshaft shortened. With my setup, the measurement from the top of the seal on the 200-4R to the middle of the rear U-joint worked out to be 66 1/4". I've got to resend that measurement to Shaftmasters first thing in the morning as they are starting on it then. Anyways, I finished installing the TCI manual lockup kit in the trans, now I just have to route the wires to the brake pedal and a switch and run the vaccuum line. The trans pan had a hole in it I had to patch so I took care of that and I started fab'ing the exhaust/X-pipe setup. I previously had race-ready exhaust cutouts just behind the headers which I LOVED to be able to open up in the parking lot when I wanted to be obnoxious, but because the trans is shorter, and the driveshaft will be 3.5" diameter, I had to get rid of the cutouts in favor of the X-pipe to put the X as far forward as possible to avoid the driveshaft hitting the X-pipe. I've used 4 x V-band clamps immediately after the header and after the X so that open headers and/or removing the X for driveshaft or tranny access/removal is only 4 easy bolts away. I love V-band setups and use them on all my exhausts now for ease of adjustment and removal. I'm getting really anxious to drive it again especially with the new trans. I also decided to replace the old cheesy unknown brand turbo mufflers that had a couple leaks developing and are about 12 years old with some new Thrush/Dynomax welded mufflers. We put a set on my friend's '63 Stingray with an X pipe setup and we both really liked the way they sound...supposedly comparable to Flowmasters, but half the cost ($35/ea)...works for me. I also noticed that when I put headers in 10 years ago, I never addressed the trans cooler lines...they're all snaked thru the hot headers, so I at least got some Thermo-Tec wrap for the lines and rebent them a little so they're not touching anymore, but they're still close. I'd like to get the headers Jet-Hot coated and make new lines that stay further from the headers, but that probably won't happen for a while. Driveshaft will prob be here around Wednesday, by the time it gets here I'll probably just have to bolt it in, fill with fluid and start her up, hopefully.
I enjoy this thread. Good info. While I'm looking for a boneyard 200 4R is there a "best" model to look for? I remember that the 700 4R made positive changes in 87 or 88 and I wonder if the same holds for the 200. Art
Yes the best trans are the BFR code from the 86 and 87 GN and Monte SS. As far as I know the 2004R was improved every year untill the last year. I know this is a fact for the 700R4 as the 91 was the best year for them.
if you want a inexpensive quick bolt in with no mods get a 2004R from an Olds wagon with a 307 and a carb the trans will have a single green wire going to the trans. Take the carb and the TV cable complete with the throttle bracket as well as the Vacume switch from the intake. If your motor is stock this will work just fine and last a long time and you don't even have to make any mods at all. It would be nice to get a GN trans but face it not all of us can afford the extra expense to convert it to Carb useage. I know this works because i have put over 20,000 miles on this exact set up and i never even dropped the pan bolt in and go. just my .02 and i am proof it works pp as i just put the same combo in my 65 Sportwagon behind a stock 350. If you want the best spend the money if you want to drive your car and not wait to pay off the credit card just use whats proven by the GM engineers. Ken:laugh:
Everyone says the GN and Monte SS ones are the ones to get, but they're the same trans with a different valve body. Others say the best ones are the ones used in police cars around 89-90. I say get one from as late as possible and don't worry what it was in. If it's a later unit it's probably sat for less time at the junkyard. The original valve body doesn't matter since that's something that usually gets swapped in a good rebuild anyway. Plus a Monte with a 305 isn't going to have a stronger trans than a fullsize Olds wagon with the towing package and a 307, so don't worry about the hype.
I've had it running for about a week now. Unfortunately I've got a different problem to address now but I did get to drive it around a little. The trans in stock form is a little bit lazy, not as aggressive as the TH400 with shift kit, but oh my Lord is the overdrive and lockup converter nice. Gone are the days of cruising at 75 mph at almost 4000 rpm! Now I'm turning around 2500, it's awesome. The engine temp seems much more controllable now. One gripe is if you are cruising at the low end of 4th gear (around 45 mph) and the lockup tries to engage it can 'hunt' a little bit going in/out of lockup. This is remedied by either shifting into 3rd manually, or just speeding up. I like to just keep it in 3rd around town until I get up above ~50 mph, then I'll switch to OD. Awesome upgrade!
Strentgth? stock these units are all about the same when it comes to 2004r s. The differences come to play in the valve body/governor combos. The brf(gn/tr) and the cz(mcss) as well as the oz(hurst olds/442) and TTA if you can find one of those, have higher shift points as well as being programmed for firmer shifts. A lot of research by some pretty experienced builders has produced some 'shift kits' that are light years ahead of stuff available just ten years ago for the 2004r. That along with billet/upgraded hard parts gets these behind some pretty impressive high hp applications. I'm not sure of the police car units as I haven't come across any in my 'crawls'(any particular code you have seen?). I do think that an AA code Cadillac unit is a good starting point as well as the Olds wagon mentioned above. Look under that wagon for an 8.5 ten bolt while you are there. Might hold a "posi" treasure in the pumpkin. Look for the tag on the cover bolt or a g80 code on the spid label if you can find it(Glove Box). Those ten bolts under a wagon have big drums too. Don't forget the backing plates.
I hope the 200 works out for you.. I bought one off craiglist a couple years ago and it's been nothing but trouble. I believe it came out of an Olds Delta 88 or something by the code on it. It hangs wayy too long in first gear, then when I punch it from about 40 or so, it slips and I end up over-revving the engine. I'm guessing it's the governor, not sure. Just something to look out for!
I had a 340ci and TH350 in my 66 skylark, and installed a 455 and TH2004R trans. Was told that the TH350 and TH2004R trans was same lenght. The driveshaft was too tight, so i had to shorten the driveshaft 1 inch.
Yes, that's the "surprise" (Re: Installing a 200-4R) Hi Eivind and V-8 Buick tranny experts, . . . . My understanding is indeed even if the TH350 and 200-4R are the "same length" you should expect to shorten the driveshaft. The crew at Orinda Motors who will be installing my 200-4R knew about it. So the word is "out there" if perhaps not that easy to find. Hope it wasn't too much of a pain when you found the driveshaft didn't fit!! Cheers, Edouard :beer
Sounds like the spring and check ball fell out of the governor. Not a hard fix but you do have to drop the pan in order to access the governor.
Sounds to me like the TV cable is out of adjustment. Start your own thread and we can troubleshoot your trans... :TU:
What are you doing for the TQ cover after the swap. The 2004r cover doesn't seem to fit nor does the T400 cover? Did you just notch out the 200r4 cover to fit??? Thanks
