?? Larry, you post the question of the hour, as we don't know, I talked with Geof, Bobb's father-in-law last night, he wasn't at Cecil and he thinks it was a brake problem. John Stevens and Dave Dechent that collected the car and wrapped it to travel home didn't do any forensics on the car either, so some time soon when John and Robin take the car back to Geof's, there will definitely be a thorough analysis of the car to try to determine what the failure was, and how to prevent it in the future, and that's all I can tell you at this time. RV
John, I had a set of G-body Aluminum drums and they didn't fit, not sure where I got them, but somebody else has them now, and that doesn't matter either. I think they were off a Regal, and the big hole wasn't big enough for my 12 bolt chevy axle if i remember correctly!
I was reading some online articles on brake swaps. They mentioned that the big hole would have to be enlarged with aftermarket axles (and the small ones if you ran 1/2" studs). Were the 12 bolt axles aftermarket? Would they have worked with a little bit of grinding?
John, Does this just apply to aftermarket brake components? I've had DOT5 Silicone fluid in my 70 since 99. I've never had a leak, or any indication of a problem with seals.
Larry, Bobbs car is still on my open trailer, wrapped in the tarps as it was when we left Cecil, WHEN BOBB IS READY (keeping in mind he's not even home yet) I WILL TAKE HIM HIS CAR AND I GUARENTEE YOU THAT HE WILL MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED, THEN WILL RELAY THE INFO TO THE REST OF US. The very first thing Bobb told me when I spoke to him on Tuesday evening, was to get rid of my open face helmet and buy a full face helmet, believe me when I tell you that Bobb will let everybody know how he feels about our safety precautions/equipment!
I have Wilwood 12.5" drilled and slotted rotors with 4 piston calipers on all four corners and all i have to say is that my `67 stops on the dime. Thanks
I can tell you from personal past experience, you DO NOT want Aerospace Brakes on a heavy GS. Trust me on this. I went off the end of Orlando Speedway, almost into the tree's in Big Red, with these POS parts. A 3800# car at 135 mph takes a whole LOT of braking power to slow it down, much less stop it.. JH
Great topic Roberta! I think one point regarding the stopping power for our cars is finding an alternate for the "Oh Sh&t" no brakes scenario. With any brake system while 99.999% may never suffer from a failure, you still have that .001% that it can happen. And when it does in an instant your rear end (not the cars) most likely will shrink up to a pin hole in a nano second. So as we all should know and discuss the proper brake system, what is one to do if a clip retaining a pad breaks off dislodging a pad, or a break cylinder fails spilling fluid. There can be a bunch of reasons. I'm no mechanic but as we all know things put together always find the most inopportune time to fail. This may rarely occur at all, but the "what if" factor is what you really have to be prepared with. A chute? Yep for the quicker cars doing well over 100, but at about 100 a chute may not open fully. And from I heard Bobb was doing about 100 through the eyes. (please correct me if I'm wrong) I am looking into installing an emergancy brake with a bright red handle close to the shifter, as one option. You can at least feather the e-brake scuffing off speeds possibly stopping the car prior to the corn fields. And if not at least your speeds will be slow enough that the rest of the safty equipment in the car will work to get you out with at most a few bruises. With some tracks you can use the cement wall to scuff off the speeds by riding the wall, but like Cecil at the end is a guard rail which is way too risky as the car may jam into the rail causing a worse incident. As with the aftermarket disc brakes, it was said before to be aware of our heavy Buicks. Racing light weight discs can be overloaded. Be realistic. With mine, with a race weight of 3,070 I installed the Wildwood front discs set up for a MEDIUM weight car. Plus after installing I flushed out the break system and installed a newer style dual master. Plus prior to any race event I inspect the entire under carriage, checking break lines, leaks, plus re-torque or snug up bolts that may cause a leak. Preventive maintenance. So by Norwalk or early Spring (next time out) I will have an emergency brake system installed to help protect me from a possible total break failure situation.
To add to Rick's post, most, if not all the aftermarket brake suppliers, regard a HEAVY car as 3000#, medium as 2500# and light as <2000#. The 11" and 12" BAER'S are a better alternative at 3800# or more.. Also, if you add REAR disc conversions, be SURE you get the additional parking brake kit, or do NOT buy that product if they don't offer it. The problem with the parking brake feathering, is you usually have to RELEASE YOUR UPPER BELT TENSION TO REACH THE HANDLE, AND HOLD THE PARKING BRAKE KNOB OUT WHILE TRYING TO STOP IN THIS MANNER. THIS REDUCES YOUR BELT EFFECTIVENESS. Most peep's just leave the parking brake pieces off, when doing the rear disc conversion.. And, if doing a master cyl upsize changeover, the larger piston REDUCES line pressure, which is really want you don't want to do.. don't ask me how I know this one.. And again, if your running a T400 with a tranny brake, you have ZERO decell braking against the tranny internals, if you manually downshift or coast... no decell protection, and no brakes, no parking brake, and your NOT going to stop in the same county.. JH
Thank You!! Okay guys that is what i was saying..it's not the quality or the maintainence...or lack of....that what we need to address..it's the .01% rare failure that causes a freak accident...."plan-b" so to speak.....as i said a few posts ago.....this is the lesson to be learned here! :rant: All ranting aside.....this is a great thread...... consider all options.....and do what makes you feel safe. :Smarty:
Brakes! Reading with interest many of these post. Several people have expressed good ideas and brake facts. First, no one recommends DOT 5 fluid except for collector cars and show cars that are not driven much. Check any of your OEM specs for fluid. Also, 3000 lbs. is a heavy car when buying after brake systems. I would not run a 3000 lbs system on a 3800 lb. GS. It is a must that all lines and hoses are new and mounted correctly. Setting around is the worst thing for our brake systems. Even if you have not driven many miles or the system is not too old, things can go bad. As for Cecil Co., I have run there and the shut down is long but it is down hill and goes right into the woods with out a sand trip that I remember. Hate this had to happen to Bobb, but maybe we all can learn from it. Get weel soon Bobb. Jim Netherland
There IS a sand pit straight ahead off the end of the track. Bobb didn't know it was there either and he tried to veer off to the right where the distance to the trees is longer. He hit the wet grass going downhill toward the trees and that probably caused him to pick up some speed before he hit them. The track manager told us he's had alcohol dragsters go off the end at 230 mph, into the sand pit and hit the piled up sand at the end. He said most of them had minor injuries. I think from now on, there'll be a lot more of us paying a LOT more attention to what's at the end of the track, and sticking an emergency plan into the back of our brains, just in case we need to pull it out real quick. Let's face it...most of us never think about that sort of thing until we get a wake-up call like this. I'm awake now!
Jim In doing so I would inquire about mounting the handle within reach such as a handle for a chute release or close to you like the shifter. But now that you mention that they sell the kits with the rear discs I will look into that maybe installing rear racing discs along with the e-brake kit. Sounds like a plan. Otherwise a 2x4 nailed to the rocker panel, just like when I was 10 when we had to stop our go-carts while flying down a hill. o No: As with the sand pits I agree with Doug, but unfortunately we do race at some tracks that have nothing but woods or corn fields. Hey Wilma! How do you stop this crazy thing!!! :grin:
John it is possible to use downshift braking.. However, I believe Bobb has a tranny brake that releases the drum decell when using a manual valve body, so no engine braking is then available. JH
Hence our decree, that we get 20 minutes to check the track out prior to racing, we all sign that waiver that says we have inspected the track, and it needs to be part of the deal from now on at any Buick Race, and for that matter any race you participate in, you have to check out the entire track, to make your plan if you have a problem. At GM, we are very safety oreinted, that we are requiring a pre-work plan for anything out of the ordinary, this would also hold true to anyone racing at track they are not use too, and even then things change, so no matter what track you might race at every weekend, it makes sense to make sure nothing has changed! Safety has to be a priority, otherwise, we don't want to talk about the otherwise. I think we all have learned alot in the last week about safety and our race cars. and there is always more to learn, as we share info and talk about the technology out there, to make us safe. I hate to say this, but I've been telling Bobb and Geof, I don't know that I want to go any faster in my car, have the new aluminum heads in reserve, but 11.30-40s in my car the way it's set up is enough for me now, some day, maybe, but we will see. Thanks for all the input, it's great stuff, RV
Sand Doug, thanks for the info. It's been about 3 years since I ran there and like you said I guess I never paid any attention to the end of the track. Good point about having a plan if something goes wrong. I wondered if Bobb didn't try to turn at the end. I've been guilty more than once of running down a track full speed that I had not checked out first. The combination of these little things can sure come back to bit you. Just the other day in Memphis after I saw a car hit the wall and burst into flames, I was going over a plan to hit my fire bottle if I was in a similar deal. After it being in the car for 3 years I had about forgotten how it worked. I guess that's why my son that is a paratrouper, always have rehearsals before each jump. Thanks Jim Netherland
Roberta Correct on that. During most Buick race meets there is a drivers meeting prior to the event. One of the topics besides other topics such as classes, etc., should be that all drivers be aware of the conditions at the end of the track and also to mention the safety factor.
Rick, Put a chute on your car buddy... that's what you need. Not rocket science, just place the anchor for the chute at about the height of the top of the rear end, the pack mount doesn't have to be anything fancy. It's a weekend project and should be a requirement on any car capable of 9 second MPH's in my opinion. Cost is a drop in the bucket compared to other money spent on the car, to make it go fast. Jim, The Typical T-Brake 400 will not decel in second gear due to the lack of an intermediate band, but it will go into first. Not that anybody is going to think about that at 100 plus mph after they figure out they have no brakes, but it is possible. It will also go into reverse. Going into first would prolly hurt the motor, and reverse could cause the car to lock up the rear tires, or blow up the trans, but that's why we have trans shields. Neither one of these is a real good option. The best deal here is situational awareness of the racetrack, and proper braking and safety equiptment for the speeds attained. We have way too many cars with 4 wheel drum brakes, going 100+ mph on the race track, at 3500 lbs or more. Stops similar to your Areospace setup.. been there, done that.. And any car capable of going 130+ mph should have a cage that looks like this.. so what if it's a little heavier.. what's your life, health and well-being worth? A tenth or two? And by far, the biggest thing we all have done from time to time... not having the seat belts pulled tight! When I built this car, we installed the seat, and very carefully positioned every switch, lever, and pedal, so that the driver could be seated in the car, with the belts pulled tight. Car building safety starts with the chassis, and is considered constantly thruought the process, and is the ablsolute number one priority. Period! Another aspect of saftey is practicality.. you have to be comfortable in the car, so you will use the safety equiptment properly. When I got this car, it was nearly impossible to get in and out of, the seating position was all wrong, and it was terribly uncomfortable to drive. George litterally had to pull his leg up with is arm, to get it on the brake pedal. A trememendous amout of work was done to eliminate this. JW
To make the car comfortable to sit in, with the funny car cage bars (and the headliner too!) we had to drop the floor, from the orginal postion of the frame rails.. now, had I built this from scratch, I would have positioned the lower rail of the dual frame rail setup at the right distance, but since I had to work with some existing stuff, we added a third 1 5/8 frame rail to each side of the car, with extra cross bracing to the orginal lower rail. I could have easily used 1 1/4 rails to do this, but saw the oportunity to further stiffen the chassis, and increase the saftey factor. Here is a pic of the underside of the car. Note the further use of X bracing, and there are some bars that you can't see in this pic, from the floor X to the rear subframe square tubing. Just an extra set of braces, prolly not needed, but hey, let's make it strong! So what if it weights a little more.. And this car is built to go much faster than it goes now, that's just an aftermarket block and a supercharger away.. the chassis is all ready to go. And that really is the issue.. most of us focus on building a killer drivetrain, but I will tell you, there are a whole bunch of cars out there that I simply would not drive.. because it's a 10 second car, going low 9's or 8's.. When considering building a fast race car, you should be spending aproximately 2/3 of the drivetrain cost, on the chassis, tires, wheels, brakes, saftey equiptment ect.. One thing we are guilty of when "penciling out" a race car, is figuring a good amount of $$ for the motor/trans, but then throwing just a few dollars at the chassis, for safety stuff. Normally, anything that does not make it look good, or go fast, is considered optional.. Options that can save your life.. FYI.. the typical Pro Stock Chassis and rear end housing, wired and painted, rolling.. less Motor/trans, goes for 80-100 K.. I have been in Don Ness's shop in town here, and watched them being built. That does not include the third member, motor, trans, shifter ect..
