Looking for opinions; Value destroying, neutral, or maybe improving.

So let me tell you a tale. I'll be quick and its for background.

My wife has said I am not allowed to buy a car that does not have rear seat shoulder belts. Kids safety and all.

So here is my thought; Buy a '60's full size Buick 4 door. Find and install shoulder belts from a wrecked full size, maybe a caddy. For installation I see building steel towers under the rear window self, in the trunk welded to the pan, to hold the upper re-tractors and cutting a correct sized hole in the shelf for the belt to poke through. Finally use a 3d modeler machine, SLA maybe, to build a reasonable looking cover that I could then sand and paint or fabric cover.

Would this destroy any value of a driver quality car? Your opinion is what I am looking for. Obviously a concours car wouldn't be a concours car anymore modded like this.

 

Hey nice car in your Avatar. I do not believe you would hurt the value of a 4 door by installing shoulder belts. Doing that does require a great deal of care because if belts are not installed correctly, they can sometimes do more damage than good in an accident so keep that in mind.

You might want to research what early year cars had factory shoulder belts and try to find one with factory installed belts. Probably have to get into the early 70s at least. I had a 71 Riv that had them but they were rare in that year.

Heres a link that sells belts. http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/replacement-seat-belts-help.html

 

John,

I don't know what age your kids are but...
Over here we have these kid-restraint-seats for babies and up till the age of around 12 or so that can be fixed to the car using a device called "ISO-Fix". I suspect you have a similar if not the same system in the US.
Iso-Fix itself though is not more than a massive metal bar (of standardized measurements) welded or bolted to the body of the car.
See link:
http://www.passatplus.de/umbauteile/isofix/isofix.htm

I installed this bar in my 4dr using the available seatbelt nuts and I am very happy. With this ISO-Fix in place I can just take the 21st century babybay from my wife's car and clip it into my 40year old vehicle in less than 5secs. Very convenient and apart from a missing crumple zone this seems to be as safe as it gets.

Hope this helps

Patrick

 

Its likely rear shoulder belts were an option, so you would not need to add bracing etc.

I added rear shoulder belts to a 70 GS, the mounts and holes were there
I bought a shoulder belt kit on ebay, it was an original shoulder belt option kit that had been restored with new webbing and new clip covers. It came with all the hardware and instructions.

The steel portion and plastic cover on the end of the rear upper shoulder belt is exactly the same as the front shoulder belts that bolts to the roof in the front..

http://72buickgs.blogspot.com/2013/01/rear-package-tray-rear-shoulder-belts.html

 

All the GM A-bodies, late '60's to early '70's were factory prepped for rear seat shoulder belts.
Can't comment on the larger cars but would not be surprised.
Easy install although you may have to fab a simple anchor plate each side.
Get in the trunk & look up a he bottom side of the rear shelf.
Look for a raised area, oval......rectangular with wide radius corners, & two 3/8" holes factory drilled.
A-body cars have them just outboard of the speaker locations.

Installed a factory set in my '71 & posted some pics here..........................somewhere.
Hardest part was getting the factory parts as they were very rare in a new car at the time.
Not too worried about factory correct another web design & buckles would easily work. Lots of after market vendors out there.

 

All good tips. I'll look into any existing allowances.

Avatar - My wife is a Pontiac Girl and that is the family convertible. I went to Long Island to look at a couple of Buicks and got flaked on by the owners. Looked the Grand Prix as an "extra." Turned out its a very solid Michigan car, one owner if you don't count the dealer, okay two now. I like to say I saved it from Hurricane Sandy before it hit.

Kiddie seats - My youngest is almost big enough for just a booster seat that uses a standard shoulder/lap belt. But for infants and toddlers in the U.S. we have a anchor system that blows. We clip to the anchors and tighten down. Lots of infant seats have a add on base that clips into the anchors and a carry-able bassinet.

^4th time typing a replay... Cant manage the back button today.

 

There was a whole list of safety requirements that went into effect for 1968-- collapseable steering column, reduced bright trim in line of sight, dash and knob shape/padding, marker lights, etc, and I think it also mandated the option of and anchor points for shoulder belts. I believe every car had to at least offer front and rear belts as some option. It's interesting to compare something like a 67 and 68 Wildcat and note the changes that were only for safety-- dash and a-pillars in particular. I think if you choose '68 and newer you should be able to do this easily. I pulled an engine from '70 Electra about 20 years ago; it had factory shoulder belts in the rear.
Patrick.
Oh, and no, it won't hurt the value in my opinion. The exposure and safety might raise it.

 

Maybe you and the wife should have worked out your back seat issues before marriage?:Brow:Knowing most women, you'll be adding side curtain air bags after you finish adding the passenger restraints... ou:

 

Here is my advice:

Pick your battles, my friend. Is it worth all this to STILL have your wife pi$$ed at you? Regardless of what mods you make she'll never be comfortable letting the kids ride in it.

Sometimes you just have to take one on the jaw.

 

My wife is okay with the occasional rides in the convertible, what she doesn't like is the thought of the kids riding around regularly in a 66 Electra or Lesabre with out shoulder belts.

So with the "iron out" and "chin" comments I'll elaborate a little about the car situation....
I have the short drive to work, currently 7 miles. So when we considered cars my wife set down what she wanted for "cargo" requirements.
"2 adults, 2 kids, our two big dogs, and enough luggage for a week"
Well once you realize that you cant stack dogs vertically in a cargo area your left with just a couple of options; Suburban, full size van, or a extended mini van. I certainly am not driving a mini van, and dont want a full size van for more reasons then I can type, and the Suburban is just a whole lot bigger then I want to drive.

But a land barge, now that is something I would drive. Hence the seat belt discussion.

 

My wife said the same thing! So, there are always the wagons. Then the dogs can come too, and there are crates made to fit wagons. They are called slant front dog crates. Anyhow, you could use Jr Dragster seat belts. They give you the 5 point holding power and really keep the kids in place. Thats what I did. If you use a wagon you will have to make a mounting point behind the seat. This is a 67 Special I did. The full size will have even more room!




- Bill

 

The Jr. dragster belts might be the best option. They are designed and built to restrain a person of that size and come with precise mounting instructions so they will work as intended.

I'm not sure you can get any safer than that and I suspect the kids will think they are cool so will be less apt to complain about wearing a seat belt.

 

Nice work Bill. The kids look happy and probably like the multi-point, colorful belts. Job well done. But, I can almost hear the "he's touching me" already! I suppose that having "grown up" riding in both a 1960 & a 1967 Pontiac full size equipped with just the lap belts, I don't really see the need for rear seat passengers to have anything more...ol skool thinking, I know.

 

I'm having a hell of a time trying to tell my 3 year-old that he can't ride in the big black car because his Mom and the police won't let him. My 1946 Buick was never equipped with belts, and can not be safely equipped with belts unless the car is completely re-engineered. Currently Alberta law states I can drive the car around as equipped, meaning no belts. But to this day no one has been able to tell me what the rules for children in car seats are. One cop told me he'd write me the ticket and impound the car and let a judge figure it out. Try and explain that to a kid who absolutely adores that car. He's at the right height to stand on the floor in the back seat area and hang on to the strap that runs behind the driver's seat. Almost seems it was designed for that...

The Electra has a regular infant/child seat in it; all I did was buy a tether-strap kit and drilled a hole into a structural member behind the seat on the bulkhead. So it uses the regular belt and the tether strap, and is completely legal and as safe as anything can get in a 45 year old convertible. I haven't thought of booster seats that use shoulder belts, I'm wondering if they're actually a good idea in the first place. One really has to consider just how safe a 45 year old can be made, because it certainly isn't designed for impacts or roll-overs without seriously injuring the occupants regardless of how many belts are in the car. At least with the lap belts a person has a slim chance to dive for the seat in the event of a roll-over and hang on. The standard child seat doesn't allow for that...let's face it, compared to modern cars, our beloved antiques are death traps, and it's something we just have to accept if we're going to continue to drive them.

 

My wife and I do foster care and have the same dilema with driving our 64 Wildcat convertible. We now make very few trips together, which is sad, but it keeps us legally protected from tickets and lawsuits, or worse (in some states you can be charged with child endangerment if they are not in the correct safety seats that are properly attached). We do have front and rear lap belts but the only kids that have gotten to ride are the teens we have fostered.

 

Sounds like the only way to get the little one into the car would be a custom subframe to anchor some belts too. But then is it a survivor?

In my convertible I am pretty sure that since I have belts in it, I am good by attaching the car seats to them. But I suspect if I install any kind of seat belt in a slightly older car it needs to as least pass visual inspection with a relatively modern looking shoulder belt.

 

My '68 Riv has factory rear shoulder belts, outer seating only, no center shoulder belts. Honestly, they're awkward as hell, but they do work. Storage clip on the front of the side armrests for the shoulder belts, and a whole snake pit of belts laying on the back seat bottom.

 

We're not talking about a GSX prototype here... Sling a belt over the back of the seat .. Drill a hole and sandwich the belt bracket between a couple steel plates onto the trunk hinge support and take the kids for a drive.
One drilled hole is not going to ruin the value especially in an inconspicuous place like that.
I have a picture somewhere...I'll post if I can find it.

---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 PM ----------

Here's a picture
You might not have the exact same but should be similar.

<img src="http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w75/cstanley444/V8Buick/seatbelt.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo seatbelt.jpg"/>

You might not have the exact same but should be similar.

 

That looks like it would work in the convertible; thanks for that!

However, the '46 was never designed for belts of any kind, and while the more "modern" cars have those reinforced plates, the older cars do not. If you've ever seen any accident-scene pictures involving cars from the 40s, (after you get over the gore, because there's usually lots of it) you'd see a lot of junk laying around because those cars had a nasty tendency to fly apart on impact. Crash protection int hose days meant installing a steering wheel and a set of brakes, nothing else. So basically what that means is any attempts to actually load in any type of crash protection or baby seats is about as effective as a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

Bottom line is if it ever comes to it, I'm going to have to take a chance with a judge and set a legal precedent. Probably get jerked into jail too...but according to the Alberta Traffic Act , I should be able to drive the car with passengers as it was equipped; which also means I can drive it without signal lights because they didn't become law here until 1953. Apparently that part of the act has not been updated or superseded; - yet...