I find it quite interesting that I have a bottle of gas in my workshop that carries the warning that "This product, or combustion products have been shown in the state of California to cause death or birth defects" The product was in fact a bottle of Oxygen.... Obviously oxygen should be removed from our atmosphere immediately, and just to make sure we should all stop breathing too! I find it more than a little cynical that all of these R12 "Drop in" replacements use the figure 12 in the name to ensure that the customer is thouroughly confused, why do they not have an R number, so that they can be correctly identified. HC refrigerants have their place, and this place is in factory assembled refrigeration units, which have sealed compressors, brazed unions and don't get driven over uneven roads at speed, the last place for HCs is in a car, setting aside all of the legalities and nonsence labels common sence should prevail, an automotive ac system is not up to the job of containing HCs anymore than a plastic bucket is suitable for transporting petrol, For automotive use Duracool is dangerous, as is any recommendation to use it in a car All of the magazine clippings in the world stating that HCs are safe to use in cars, and that you are being ripped off if you use R134a, still don't make fact. What I do find disturbing is this conspiracy theory attitude to any form of regulation, too much TV I think. Perhaps you would like to ponder this materials safety data sheet from BOC (British Oxygen Company)BOC
o No: Well Karl, it looks like some people think that muscle car and mopar magazines set the industry standard.. Not the EPA, Snap, or any government agency..You can buy a magazine that proclaims sex with minors should be legal, to only those that go to church every sunday will go to heaven, or magazine that say there is no heaven?? I guess we should all just read magazines that fit our liking and say all other facts are garbage...I know, lets all read MAD magazine.."What me worry" ALFRED E NEWMAN..... Seems that when ever someone disagrees with the HC proponants, we are the crazy ones...And it's never quailfied ac techs, but back yard mechanics..Which I really do admire, and will go out of my way to help..but some of them are just out in left field.. They talk about the AC techs making money?? I know, we should all fix cars for free and let our families starve?? Doesn't make sense..Working for a living means making an income..But these alternative refrigerant people make me busier than ever..Why are HC's better than autiofrost, or hotshot,or the hundreds of others. They are claim theirs are the best after all..If they are all the best, I guess I better run out and buy a hundred different machines to service them..Like I said, when they come off the assembly line with cat urine,I will buy the machine to service them..Until then, I still say do it right and you'll do it once..And my warranties will be in tact!!!
One more Point I would like to make is this............the EPA tells us it is illegal to mix refrigerants in systems............then why is it OK to mix them in cans? Seems like the "approved" blends are oK..........I have decided for myself which is better. I don't have to live in fear of admitting the truth because I am not a slave to the EPA. :bglasses: Here's the cold hard facts:
Karl, you have just contradicted yourself..........since the sealed systems of automotive a/c units are so sloppy and leak prone, then why would you want to expose yourself and your family to the dangers of the toxicity of 134? The fact is, the larger molecular structure of HC-12a is larger than both R-12 and R-134, making leakage less likely. Also, no sealer is required with HC refrigerants as it is with 134. Here's some more propaganda::Brow:
LOL, Chick, I know exactly what you mean. Al though not ac related, I have experience of a couple of brushes with flamable gasses, one was a truck driver buddy of mine who spent three weeks in hospital when the small butane powered gas stove that he used to make his tea whilst on his travels developed a small leak. The resulting explosion blew him out through the windscreen and his two year old truck was a total loss, fortunately he was stationary at the time of the incident, the second incident involved an electrician who allowed a live 240v wire to short out on a copper gas supply pipe (With a pressure of only 20millibar inside it) the flame was three foot long and although he had lost a fair bit of hair, his eyes were saved by the fact that he wore glasses. Today I have been carrying out further tests on HCs effect on cow, sheep and pig tissue....Results were delicious
Chick, you have just verified what I have said earlier..........your own reluctance to admit the shortfalls of the toxic R-134 you install in every car you repair is based on the need for you to make money. Heck, I have a family to support also.......I do small engine repair for a living..........I believe that every lawn mower needs to be serviced annually, how often do you service yours? It is in my own best interest for people to do that, as it is in yours to follow the EPA "guidelines". Besides, you would be fined if you didn't. The dislike of HC-12a is financially rooted, that's the bottom line here. I can't expect any one of you guys to admit that, and that is not what I am asking here. I know what is best for my cars, and since I don't need professionals to do anything for me, I have a choice. Incidentally, in 1986 before I gave up auto mechanics for a living, I was an ASE certified master technician. The only thing I can't do myself is state inspections, I do all my own work. When I answer a question for someone that I feel I am qualified to answer, I can reply with un-biased answers. Can you honestly say that? :bglasses:
The point of not mixing two specific refrigerants is about contamination of the auto a/c system! Not the properties of a single refrigerant blend or non-blend. Also the EPA does not APPROVE any refrigerants! Refrigerants that have been submitted to the EPA under the SNAP protocol either get accepted or denied. Guess what Duracool and all other HC refrigerants have failed to get a SNAP acceptance in the US and many other countries! An ASE certified tech and he does not even know why refrigerants should not be mixed in an automotive vehicle. ASE training must have been grading on a curve that day. Master tech to lawnmower repairman, I am starting to see the pattern now!
:beer Karl, throw in apenguin and I'll join you.... ANyway, nailhead, how uninformed you are..Sad when you think mixing refrigerants (blends) in a can is the same as adding a blend to a working refrigerant and or system..when "blended in a can", it becomes a "refrigerant" (in some minds), and added that way into a system it is still a refrigerant made up of different chemicals. But the system must be empty of the prior refrigerant no matter what it was...They are talking about adding ANY refrigerant to another in a car. such as R134a to existing R12 charge....Talk about propaganda, read your posts again my friend..I fully understand that I can not convince you of anything, as you seem to have tunnel vision when it comes to HC's, whereas any AC tech WILL admit that they have their place. Next time you see an AC service truck, ask them to open their back door and count the different colored cylinders they carry. Each for a specific application..And yes, some are blends that work in closed loop systems better than R12. Some use R22, (and I can't even remember them all)and there are many different refrigerants in use for many years depending on the application. Even ammonia is used in refrigerators that are in cabins where people don't have electric..Our argument is that HC's do not belong in MV application, nor does any refrigerant that fractionates. (meaning any blend) You cannot top off a fractionating refrigerant period. So your answer seems to be let it all out and recharge. How ridiculas that is...Listen, if it works for you, that is great..My arguement is you telling people to break the law because you think the laws are unfair. Well wake up, many laws are unfair, but until you change them, it is the law, and breaking it makes you a criminal..I'm not trying to bash you, but how can you say breaking the law because you don't agree with it does not make you a criminal????What kind of mindset is that????What kind of society is that??It's legal to sell in places that it's not legal to use..Yes that is kinda weird..But....My last post on this subject, as they never go anywhere, and certainly don't help people.
Tim, I did not attack you personally, why do you feel the need to belittle me? I am proud of what I do for a living and was smart enough to know when to get out of a profession that becomes more demanding every day. What's the problem, can't you take the heat? As for mixing refrigerants, whether it is mixed in the system or in the can it is still mixed, and when the car is returned to a shop for evacuation, there is different types of refrigerant in there......something the EPA says is illegal to put together in the same cylinder. Furthermore, when a system is contaminated, it will contain moisture and air. When moisture mixes with certain refrigerants, it makes acid.........hc refrigerant won't do that. As to your rude comments............... :moonu:
:spank: Ok, one more post...First I never said R134a was not toxic. It is as is EVERY refrigerant if someone is to breath it..Common sense tells you not to..none are safe to breath, if for no other reason as they displace oxygen....secondly, where did you get the information that sealers need to be added to R134a..Most shops would chase a car if the owner put ANY kind of sealer in the system..Wake up son....Stop reading all the hype about HC's and read "real" ac techs posts. NEVER put anything but oil and refrigerant into your system. The only exception is UV dye.,.Nothing else period!!! One other piont. You are a lawnmower tech...If I was to tell you to cut the gas in half with keorosene the lawnmower will work better...Would you buy into that?? I doubt it, but it would bring you business wouldn't it..Since you are ASE certified, why not become certified (ASE) in automotive ac repair and service..You might learn something..I know nothing of lawnmower repair, so I'll leave that alone..you know nothing of ac repair, so..... That said, I will not enter into a battle of wits, with an unarmed man....Later dude...
I do not believe it is illegal either to sell or use unless you are licensed, as you are. I could easily pass that test, but I don't need to take it. If I did I could go to jail for not promoting R-134 where it does not belong. Call it tunnel vision, call it what you want, but I have not advised anybody to do anything illegal unless yourselves as licensed have become inspired to begin using Duracool and mixing it with other refrigerants. I am repeating here, if I thought it was illegal, I would not be debating this issue. In fact, I am going to call the local EPA office Monday and hear what they have to say about this issue. I can only imagine the smokescreen now, but I will try to make sense of it all.:bglasses:
Then you tell me why interdynamics (and some others) "retrofit" kits ALL come with leak sealer and "performance booster" included?
If you would care to study the materials safety data sheet you will note that R134a is a minor iritant. It does not make your heart explode as you said, but in high densities, MAY cause an irregular heart beat, If one was to stick ones head in a tub of water, then one would drown, or in high concentrations of Carbon dioxide would suffocate. Car aircon systems do indeed leak at a very high rate when compaired to domestic aircon systems, but when you consider the volume of air consumed by the average person per year and the volume of refrigerant that person will breathe in from their aircon system, the ratio would be so small that it would be negligable. My main fear is the large releases caused by a failure in the system from a traffic accident. A massive release of flamable gas in an environment of heat and sparks can be catastrophic, in comparison the car equiped with R134a would leak away with an initial high intake of refrigerant, but this would drift away harmlessly. Consider also the car with the the small stone damaged condenser parked up in your garage overnight (You may also have a service pit where both HCs and R134a could collect) An errant spark from a loose HT lead in an atmosphere of HCs could really give you a lousy start to your day, R134a could safely be ventilated bacause the smell is pretty distinctive (Remember that HC refrigerants do not have any odour added to them, if they do have an odour, then thet are repackaged patio gas. Blended refrigerants will have been designed to have certain properties, pressures etc, and will have been designed by folk who know what they are doing, they will be alocated an R number such as R413a, the "4" denotes that this product is a blend. Mixing refrigerants because you feel like it can cause unpredictable results causing uncontrolable high pressures, damaging compressors (I note that you informed one guy that it was ok to mix refrigerants, I trust that when he returns to you with a wrecked compressor you will buy him one). One of my customers decided that he was going to save himself some money by working on his own Mercedes Sprinter fridge van. When he called me out to it after he decided that he was having a bit of a problem with it, I found a mix of R12,R22,R134a and air, his compressor was locked solid......He really knew what he was doing. Of course none of this will convince you because there is a conspiracy against you, we are all government agents trying to rip you off for the few lousy bucks difference, and of course you know better!
That remark was uncalled for, I did not belittle you..........the fact is I know a lot more than you might think
The fact is that I did not. I said the proper thing to do would be to evacuate his system first, but adding some to it would probably work. So you're saying that higher pressure from mixed refrigerants is more than that of 134? I don't think so, unless you mix something with 134, but I don't know.............I'm not a chemist! As for the compressor, I guess higher pressures from 134 are OK though, even though older cars were designed for much lower high side pressures. Oh, I'm sorry........I've got tunnel vision!:boring:
Is that retrofit Kit or Death Kit. It is not illegal in the UK, and I would suspect that it is the same in the US to add these additives, but not at all professional, and they dont work either, but they do generate good money for the suppliers, selling to those who are stupid enough to believe that ther is such a thing as a quick fix....Then they go to a professional
What Ac tech would suggest using that companies products. We refer to them as "death" kits in the industry, and are the cause of many poor people destrying their systems and added costs to repair them. that company along with a compressor copmany that uses several names are the reason for so many failures...This is a free lesson for you. The reason for so many R134a failures is these "kits" amd the lack of instructions that come with them. I repeat, no matter what these companies push, refrigerant and oil, and sometimes UV dye are the only thing that should be in your system. As an ASE master tech, would you put seal sweller in an engine that has a leaking rear main seal??..they sell it..but would you use it?? Please don't tell me you would..that would just be to much to bear to see a master tech use junk in an engine...Or an AC tech adding "magic bullets" to an ac system.......Getting old=going to bed early...later dude..
To set the record straight, Tim, the reason I started my own business fixing small engines was to care for my 3 children at home after winning custody of them in my divorce...............it has nothing to do with incompetence. Calling me a lawnmower repairman is like me calling you a grease monkey..............
We were discussing mixing refrigerants, no mention was made of which refrigerants were being mixed. No one is trying to belittle you, but we are concerned that the advise that you are giving out to folk is dangerous, we work on aircon every working day, lets hope that you stay lucky.
I was making the point that if 134 was not prone to leaking ou sealer would not be included in the kits. :boring:
