Okay, I'm looking at changing my mixing system, using PPG now but may change to Dupont, their VINdicator mixing systems seems to be the most up to date setup out there.......anyone out there using this? pro's-con's about it? o No:
I use dupont everyday at work,i love the system i get great results but i find that the vindicator system is hardly ever right on in fact sometimes its not even blendable. Otherwise ive been using it for years and have no complaints. the 4500 clear is some good stuff i bake it for 20 min at 130 135degrees its ready to buff in 2 1/2 hours.
Hum.....so its not that good at hitting the correct formula the first time? See with PPG, we have nothing to go by on the first mix and that sucks, some of these imports now like Hyundai are a tuff first shot, you mix a 45.00 pint of paint and then you have to mix the next alternet, that hurts and thats what I'm trying to cut back on, the PPG products are good but the system used in shop to mix with seems out dated and I was hoping the VINdicator was the answer.
I've been removed from the body business for a while now. But for several years, I worked in both PPG jobbers and PPG body shops. What we used to do (mostly at the body shops) to test colors, we would mix a small amount moving the decimal point to the left so we were making a 10th of the mix, I think we used quart formulas. Then we sprayed test cards. We would catalog the sample cards and before we knew it we had our own variance decks. The main shop I worked in did work for an Acura and BMW dealer, often we would get new models with new colors that hadn't been documented well, our catalog system was invaluable for those situations. Dave
I remember those days well, the mixing systems out now will give you formula's in amounts as small as 2 oz.....2,4,8 oz's. Making test panels I believe is a good thing for 3 stage colors but try to tell a painter on commision to do that is a waste of breath, even tho it would be wise at times, it still don't work very well.........we should be at a point now with technology and such, that on standard 2 stage colors that we shouldn't have to do that, and to a point, I agree.
:beer What would you like know about Dupont my friend. I'm a Dupont Performance Coatings rep in the Chicago area. I'm certified in just about every name of paint brand out there. Please ask and I'll try to give you the answer your looking for. Vindicator was made acutally from color postioning from the OEM. We noticed that several colors from different spraying facilities for the same manufacturer had several variations. There are several reasons why. 1) different OEM suppliers of the coating example: Dupont, PPG BASF etc.2) different types on paint used some waterborne some solvent borne, some urethane, some enamal. What Vindicator does is where a shop gives us panels from the cars or from our field aduits, we check the postioning of the color the original OEM standard that they gave us and plot it. We find out where the car was produced and develope the trend of the color. One plant might be bluer or yellower or even :Comp: redder. We map out the varience and make our alt color from there. I hope that helped. You can send a PM if you wish or have any tech questions. Good Luck and you made a great choice Chris DeMik
So Chris, Dupont or PPG, product for product I think they both will do my customers well, but what about saving my painter alot of work and time, that is what I'm after....ease of product before its sprayed.
James, Let me start by giving you some information about me. I work for the PPG Cleveland Color Platform Team. I style the new colors for our OEM customers and my specific account is Nissan Design. Not only do I work in OEM coatings but I do quite a bit of work using the PPG refinish products including matching OEM color and creating refinish colors for the OEM Show Cars. Now that you know a bit about me.... I can say that I feel your pain when it comes to matching colors that are on the newer cars. Especially the cars that have an online BELL/BELL application. This process tends to stand up the flake more than the older Bell/Recip process. When the aluminums in the OEM coatings stand on end you will get a coarser appearance which typically gives a lighter down look (flop angle). If you are using the DBC line of PPG materials you can orient the flake using DX685. Once the flake is oriented correctly then you can match the hue. I am sure this is an over simplification of what is going on but from what I have seen this is the toughest aspect in todays color matching. If you can give me a better idea of where your running into troubles with the PPG Paint system them I may be able to give additional ideas on how to overcome your issues. So.. in ending... PLEASE keep that PPG Paint System.... I need to bye more go fast parts :3gears: Later
i ve been using nexa for 5 years which was ici auto color until ppg bought them out . i can honestly say that there is no paint system on the market with a better color match than nexa . i mean its not even close, its at the point now where ill mix a color on a car ive never sprayed before with out even doing a spray out panel, this stuff is awesome .. anyone who has ever painted cars for a living will tell you that the hardest part of repairing any paint job is getting the color right . i struggled with glasso paint for years before we went to this nexa system.and i also used spies but the color match is just not as good i mean NEXA even has engine bay colors that match the factory perfect this stuff is the best bar none... My vote goes for NEXA :TU: :Smarty: MIKE
Okay, talk to me here, what is the very best setup for the body shops out there for mixing paint in house from PPG? Whats the scoop on GLOBAL? From what I've been told, GLOBAL is the lastest greatest thing from PPG, true-false? if it is, why can't I buy it in WV? One Choice, the lastest thing to help with bonding issues with un-coated bumpers (NISSAN is one :rant: ) my PPG rep came by after I raised pure hell over a Toyota bumper pelled on us and the customer was in another state so I had to pay someone else to fix it, my rep helped me but my jobber should have told us about One Choice before we had a issue........here's the thing, I have been a PPG shop for years, I put a PPG mixing system in our shop to mix DBC and DBU back in 1995, I have no problem with the product or price, what I do have a problem with is either my jobber or PPG is sitting on their ass not keeping up with the times, more than likely its my jobber but what am I supposed to do, I have a new painter that has been using Dupont for about as long as we've had PPG and he's telling me that Dupont is a much easier system to use......I went to 2 differenet shops in my area and looked at their mixing systems (they have Dupont) and seen what they can do and what I found out is that I'm getting the short end of the stick from PPG. Please tell me what the deal is. ou:
James, I am not a rep for the PPG refinish department so I really cant say which system is the very best for a body shop. If there were ONE system that was the best then every body shop out there would have that system. Then all of the other paint suppliers would be out of business. The Global Paint system is something that PPG seems to be pushing right now. I still use the DBC system at work so I do not know what the advantages or disadvantages are to this paint system. As for why the Global system is not available in your area. I have NO idea. I do know that certain paint systems are marketed differently in different areas of the country do to EPA rules. Bonding issues with uncoated bumpers???? I have not had any issues with bonding. I can tell you that the lab technicians spend hours upon hours testing our paints for different properties such as adhesion, mar, elasticity.. so on and so on. Again... let me say.. I am NOT a refinish REP for our refinish products but whenever I have seen any type of surface delamination its usually when short cuts have been taken. Such as not spending the proper time on surface preperation. Or using the wrong catalyst for the job or the incorrect amount. Or trying to save a few $$$ and not adding the flex agent to the paint when its applied over a plastic part. Wether its PPG or Dupont the products must be used according to there specific directions. PPG... Dupont.... or any other refinish supplier. They all sell paint and they all test their products before they go to market. We as humans tend to be habitual and not like change. Especially when a product has been good to us. I know some people that even forget about the bad of a certain product they are so brand loyal. Your painter says that Dupont is easier to use. Is this because Dupont its what he is used to using? Either way you decide to go I would suggest you talk to several different shops to gain more information before you make your decision. Afterall this is how you EARN your $$$$ to live. Last but not least.... KEEP ON THAT PPG REP.... They are paid to help the end user such as yourself. Good Luck
You haven't heard of any problems with painting un-coated bumpers? PPG just came out with a new system just for these type bumpers called One Choice, its a 3 step program. I hear ya on the short cuts and I don't allow them, no way, Beckley is a small town and a bad word goes along way in a small town, the painter I have now I have had before, he worked for me when I put PPG in the shop so I don't think he's shooting me a line and I really believe in trying hard to make my guys job as easy as I can and that includes the painter. I felt before this new painter came into the shop (for 2nd time...lol) that my jobber wasn't keeping up with the times. I'm not sure that you understand what I mean by "system", I'm not talking "paint", I'm talking software and hardware that we mix paint with, what we use to get our mixing formula's and info. I have to use a CD to update my software and it isn't sent to my shop, its sent to the jobber then I have to stay on them to update me, I don't think it should be that way. I thank you for the help you've gave and it sounds like you have a cool job! :TU:
i use dbx 800 for raw bumpers and they never peal. ive tried all the systems for painting raw bumpers and there l a lot of work and there not as effective as simply wiping the bumper with 800...mike
Here's my .02 cents I've had alot of different systems in my shop and i find them all to be the same, as far as quality goes. I'm currently using Dupont and i have had excellent results with there VINdicator system. "Knock on wood here" ...but i haven't had to respray or tint any of the work that i've done thus far. I do a lot of blend work and i'm very happy with the outcome. I live sleep and breath "Chroma Premier". There slogan should be : "It'll make a painter out of anyone" As for saving time for your painter i think it will do just that. I know "cpk 71" stated that it isn't bullet proof, but nothing ever is. I personally mix all my own paint and if i'm off by just a fraction i toss the mix (rarely... but it does happen). The only time i've ever seen it go wrong, was when my employee mixed the paint for a job he was doing. He didn't care though because it was on his mothers car.... and he was off the clock. Good luck with your choice. :TU: 1967 Big Buick aka: Jarrod Jacobs
all these paint opinions I knew this would happen. To answer the question of what paint PPG or Dupont would keep your painters happy? They both or even all work and work well. They wouldn't be out there if they didn't. But every paint system has it's bonus. Dupont invents the Hypercure Clearcoats. PPG follows with the 3000 series clearcoat. Etc. All paints companies design paint for a varitiy of shops and environment. Some painters like Dupont, some PPG some Sikkens. Every one has there opinion. My personal is Spies Hecker they are DOCUMENTED the best color match out there. They don't have more then a standard and 4 variants per color but not on every color most are just one color. Some systems(Fact) have as many as 19 on some colors. Basecoats that cover in 2 coats 90% of the time. With SH you don't have to sand factory e-coat! That right , you get a new panel from the parts man degrease and wash off any silicones apply a coat of sealer and topcoat right over it. No sanding. That's the original wet on wet system. That process is backed by a full lifetime warrenty. A plastic system that ever honest paint rep will tell it's the easiest and works plastic system. You don't have to identify the plastic just clean the plastic sealer and topcoat. It's been out like that for 25 years. One hardener and reducer for the whole system! That's for primer, surfacer, sealer, clearcoat, single stage, Etc. They've had this technology for 25 years and ALL of the other paint companies are now in the passed 5 years catching on. when ICI(nexa) first came over from England, they where similiar, Glasurit was the same way. PPG bought ICI and had the change the name to Nexa because ICI(Glidden) owned the rights to the name. Most of the European paints that are now manufactured in the US lost a little bit of quality. There are solvents used in the US that can't be manufactured here. Spies Hecker is the last of the original Euro paints to stay manufactured in Germany. It's the factory paint on BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagon. They have more manufacturing approvals then any other paint companies in the world. 95% of the mixing rations are mixed 3-1 with hardener. Sprayable polyesters that many restoration shops :Smarty: even if they don't use SH they will use that product for staighting large panels. Great system very user friendly. But watch out boys the industry is going to Waterborne product and it's going to get tough to paint with out a booth, heat, and lots of airflow. Good luck and happy Thanksgiving. Chris DeMik
Spies Hecker is my next move. German made products seem to better quality anyways when it comes to paint & body. My jobber has mentioned Spies Hecker a few times so i will make it my New Years Resolution to give it a try. :grin:
While spies is very good for durability i still find that as far as color match goes NEXA is the best BAR none. like i said i used both in the real world and i found that NEXA is the better of the two. by the way i paint nothing but new Mercedes and bmws for compettion imports , one of the biggest dealership groups in new york.But like they say to each his own . Have a great thanksgiving :beer MIKE
Its good to here everybodys opinion on this subject, its probably best for u to narrow it down to the couple of paint systems you think would work the best for you and have lengthy discussions with the reps in question.i think you might be close to deciding so go with your gut decision.And remember if you dont like something you can always switch again,its a pain in the a$$ but you gotta do what you gotta do.Personnally i like dupont its easy to use and performs good,your always going to have to tweak colors its just part of the business you just have to do your best.Let us know what happens. later chris
