Please tell me I don't have to pull the heads off

I PM'd Scrappy to see what the cost of that is, so well see.

In the mean time the entire motor will be going back to Sundance auto Monday morning. From what I hear the guys over there are pretty stand up, So I am feeling like they will take care of the heads. If not we might need to get a bail fund started (JK) but not really. Then its on to the short block. If I am understanding decking the block correctly that can not be done unless the block is completely torn down? This would include the block being magged, and pressure tested, along with having new cam bearings installed, and decking the block surface. What did I miss?

 

I'd call Gene's up off of Rosegarden/Deervalley.
21431 N 23rd Ave,
Phoenix, AZ 85027
(623) 582-0373

Ask them what it would cost to measure out the deck for flatness. Ask them what would need to be removed if anything for measurement. If the deck does need to be resurface (or cleaned up) all bearings should be removed...you want no potential metal shaving caught anywhere...

As far as cleanness, I don't think fluxing or magged is needed at all that is my two cents. Your block is clean and the leak is not in the block. So I am only stating what I would do without guarantees. ray:

EDIT: it would need to be cleaned if the deck was re-cut flat and true.

EDIT again: I know its getting late, I forgot about the read main seal which is a reason to go ahead and remove the rope seal and replace with the BOP seal. Yes to do what you asked above, the block needs to be striped. So the block is out anyway, so flip it upside down. Pull the pan, pull (and inspect) all the bearings. Pull the pistons etc. Mark each one in the correct orientation and order. Leave the CAM bearings unless the deck does not check good, then ask the shop to remove and re-install bearings.

 

Not necessarily. ive had cylinders full from the piston to the intake port and not hydro lock them, on a gas. diesel is totally different story, there is so much more volume to occupy in a gas engine and if the valve is open even a little bit its going to spit the water out, it would only hydro lock in a perfect murpheyed up condition. it is by no means a way to rule something out on a gas engine with minimal compression ratio.

 

All that you need is more coolant than the combustion chamber can hold on the compression stroke. It's a pretty easy actually. Gas or diesel.

 

Flatness is exactly the term, and it's a quick check with a straight edge and feeler gauge. I'd do it.

If the heads prove to be the root cause I'd fix that, then if the decks are flat and everything else is visually ok, I'd put it back together and run it.

Devon

 

Thanks DaWildcat. I did exactly that with my GN's 3.8...I wasn't sure to recommend this method (straight end/level and feeler gauge) for this case.

So given all of this Babyblue69 could/should do these things:

1.)Take the whole engine to the shop have them remove the heads and resolve that issue.

2.)Have a shop or an experienced V8buick member check the deck. (depending o condition either stripe the block in worse case or proceed with #3 & 4)

3.)(Optional) Have a shop or an experienced V8buick member remove the rope seal (rear main) and put in the BOP seal. - may as well since the engine is out.

4.)Have a shop with experienced V8buick member be present when the heads are inspected and re-installed.

5.)Re-install in car, install all accessories, and drive. :3gears:

 

You dont have to pull the heads off



your welcome

 

I know one thing, I would never take it back to the shop that did the work to start with, even though they may say we would fix it for no cost. Advise them, you want a complete refund or see them in small claims. Sounds like the shop is not what it's cracked up to be.

Len

 

Any updates yet?

 

We were having some pretty bad weather here last week, but the heads are back at the shop that did the work. I will be going down there tomorrow to see them tear them down, the shop owner assured me that if the heads are in fact the cause of the issue which most of us believe they are that he will make it right. So tomorrow I ill let yo guys know what making it right actually looks like. The casting off the heads are from 71. I assume 71 and earlier castings should be the only heads if they need to be replaced that will be acceptable? And then I have the what to do with the short block. I have had split opinions regarding this. About half of the people I have talked to say tear it all the way down, have the block checked, and decked, and another half saying check the deck surface, and if its flat put it back together sort the heads out put it back together and run it. So what to do I don't know at this point, but whatever it is I want to make the right decision and get either have the block in the shop so it can be torn down or tear it down myself have them check it machine it, and what ever else needs to be done by Friday.

The pros of tearing it down are that I can have some assurances that there are no other surprises, and I can actually have the block decked, heads milled to get me closer to the 10-1 compression that I actually wanted from the start, and be confident that block surface is flat.

The cons are the time the motor would be down and the added cost which I am hearing is near the $1000 dollar range. Thoughts?

 

I'm of the opinion that once the heads get fixed or replaced, bolt them on and run it. That extra $1k for a little more compression is better off saved for some AL heads that you were considering switching to in the future. 10:1 CR with iron heads and pump gas is a gamble in my mind.

If the machine shop is found to have done something wrong with the heads (what was that thingy in #3 or #5 exhaust port?), then I would hope they would pay for or supply incidentals such as fluids and gaskets. You can be firm w/o being a jerk!

The machine shop that worked on the heads is the same one that machined and assembled the entire engine?

 

I used to run your combination. Did not deck the block and it would run low 12's @ 110. With the 413 cam you can run 93 octane pump gas with no problem. So I agree with Bob, throw the heads on and run it. Good luck.

 

TA assembled the short block, and Im leaning towards putting it back together too. Unfortunately I was not able to get over to the shop today due to work, but i'm off tomorrow. I too want to know what that is in number 3. I don't care as much about the incidentals, the head gaskets I will ensure they are accountable for though, so long as i am made whole on the heads.

 

I know dyno's don't always tell the story about a motor, but I was really disappointed with the power output this engine had on a chassis dyno 316HP 367TQ. The motor was retarded 4 degrees why I don't know that has been adjusted back to dot to dot, but is this about what I should have expected because it seems to be on the low side given what some of the other combos I have been seeing. The operator said that it was about a 26% power loss through the drive train? I don't know that low 12's and 316 are speaking the same language?

 

Yes, 316 seems very low for any 455 with decent compression, decent heads and any cam better than a stock stage 1. I'd expect better out of a stock motor at 4500 RPM. Of course, dyno differences don't really make apples to oranges comparisons work.

The real proof is in the MPH at the far end of the 1320.

 

Ok so after all of that headache turns out the heads were not the issue at all the head gaskets simply did not seal. The machine shop ordered a set of the Felpro 1125 head-gaskets, I bolted it back up and it has been great. Bringing the cam back to dot to-dot was a bad idea as the car did not respond to that at all so clearly there is something to degreeing. It runs ok but i feel like it ran better before. Before putting it back in the car I also put the SP1 intake on it. I have since purchased the Stage 1 SE heads from TA and they are being worked on by RWR now so Im a little excited about that, hoping to have them back in the next couple weeks or so. So the iron heads, one of the two intakes, either the SP1 or the performer, and the 413 & springs will be for sale. in the coming weeks. Ill keep you guys posted.

 

Congrats on getting it right. Good luck with the steps ahead.

 

The head gaskets simply did not seal?? I find that almost impossible to believe! What head gaskets did you use?

 

The orange crush, I gave the shop hell about the heads they had me bring the car to their shop because I was adamant there was something wrong with the heads. The resurfaced them a little to get the some of the gasket material that stuck, put the felpros on no issue. So I don't know if it was a bad gasket, or what it was. I was actually a little embarrassed for behaving the way I had. I was just sooo frustrated and couldn't explain how that was happening. the car has been back together now for a months and no issue. I cant wait now for the Aluminum heads, and Bullet cam thats going into the car next. Im hoping to have the heads back in two weeks.

 

Many cams would have 4 degrees advance built into the grind. This could explain the setting. Ask TA.



August 2013
Muscle Car Horsepower – How Exaggerated Was It?
By: Jim Koscs

"The magazines have compared old and new muscle cars and have also put classic models on a chassis dynamometer to record rear-wheel horsepower.
'Rear wheel horsepower was at least 30 percent lower than the reported gross figure, in some cases even more,'...Some Super Chevy readers must have been stunned to see that an LS6 Chevelle SS, with 450-hp rating, put down 288 rear wheel hp in the dyno test. That would have put a net hp rating at around 350 hp for that legendary big block."

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2013/08/13/horsepower


A comment below the article makes a relevant observation:

"I am a Professional Engine builder by trade and I have done a Ton of Engine dyno then chassis dyno comparrisons(sic). Older auto trannies, TH400,C6 typically show a 19-22% loss Older 4 speed manuals almost always show a 15-16% loss Newer AT cars, Camero(sic), firebird 12-15% New manual trans is 8-11% New auto 4x4 truck is 25-28% These are verified over 20 years of testing, so far I can tell if something is really wrong or if the hp claims were bs."

A stock 427 Yenko Camaro makes 288 RWHP and 320 Ft /lb RWTq. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/additional-tech/sucp-1102-chevrolet-muscle-car-dyno-wars/

To put the forgoing numbers in perspective with muscle cars produced today, a stock Dodge Hellcat yields somewhere in the range of 620-640 RWHP and 600 plus ft/lb RWTQ on a chassis dyno.