Question for you low 10 and sub 10 sec. stock suspended A-body rear suspension

Tom,
Thank you very much for your input! I never thought springs could possibly wear out that fast. I guess its time I ditch my springs, they are originals with 2 coils cut out of them. I was amazed how my car had great traction to nothing at all. That new engine upset the car so bad it looked like it never been down the track before.
Thanks to all you guys for your help!

 

60 foot times

I've been adjusting and working with my suspension this year and still can't get any better than 1.70 on an 11.54 pass at Bowling Green. That includes our local 1/8 track. I've put adjustable HAL shocks on the rear, Koni adjustables in front, a Dick Miller upper adjustable control arms, anti roll bar, and played around with tire pressures from 12 to 24 psi. The 1.70 pass was at 24 psi. I run a 3.73 gear, is this what's limiting me at this point or look elsewhere?
Thanks, David

 

David
More info would be needed..........
Engine specs.,Converter,Veh. weight?
Is it "lazy" or spinning?

I'd say the single most important part to how a car leaves the line and runs down the track is the Torque Converter.......

 

Hmmmm..... whats that ? :beer

 

Urethane bushings

John,

I am not a fan of urethane bushings. I use Global West Delrin on all 3 of my cars. What you want is no "compliance" or mushiness but not at the expense of any binding which the urethanes do too easily. Afco now makes some lightweight steel bushings for the front or you can also take the stock ones and file out the serations that limit movement for that stealth look. When you change out the front coil springs you should be able to raise both upper and lower control arms, let go of them and they should immediately fall. If not you've got a potential binding situation that needs to be corrected.
I also need to mention that you need to constantly check all mounting points and bolt holes for any wear or cracked welds, especially the rear. All 3 cars have been fixed in those areas.
On my Top Stock car I cannot have adjustable front end limiters which are the preferred method of controling movement. Without those I want the front end to rise and transfer most of the weight before the tires come off the ground. This makes the transition up and down much smoother and does not unload the rear end. Any jerky or straight up motion is wasted et. That's why I will be using double adjustable front shocks to "tune" the front end for track conditions.
I also agree with Perry that our cars on on the edge on 9 inch tires but do believe that the proper suspension or launch rpm can be adjusted for most track conditions if you make the right call. I unfortunately don't always make the right call. Rotate rear tires every 6-10 runs. If you can see wrinkles in the sidewalls they are no longer consistent.
If I were building a fast (sub 12 sec) Buick bracket car I would take the money you will spend to make that "last" 30 Hp($3000?) and spend it on other areas of the car. Your car will be just as fast, you will be far more consistent and easier on parts. The car will be fun to drive and everyone will be scratching their heads on how it happens.

2 examples

My SS/KA 1972 Buick GS with a small valve 455 Buick motor has run a best of 10.88 @121.5 at an NHRA National event weighing in at 3795#. It made a whopping 528 HP on the dyno.
Jason Line's 1970 Buick GS Stage 1 D/SA stocker just went 10.52 @ 125 mph on the west coast at a divisional race. It weighs over 3900# and made just over 560 HP on the dyno. Pretty pathetic, I'd say! For us, that is!

Anytime you are at an event go watch the stockers run, well worth your time. Check the cars out and ask questions.

Food for thought on the other .3-.4 of et or "free" hp.

Exhaust collectors
Aerodynamics. (Wax, body panel fit, mirrors, headlights, etc. I spent most of 1 day on Apollo on this alone)
Front tires.
Transmission/ convertor, including weight.
Driveshaft.
Rear end assembly, including rear gear "finish".
Cold radiator, heads and intake.
Hot engine oil and transmission fluid.
Cold FRESH fuel.

More later. :laugh:

In Top Stock we calculate that once you break into the high 9's or real low 10's it takes 16-20 HP to improve et by a .10. This varies by chassis effciency but is pretty standard across all makes of motors, Buick included. At these et's each 100 # of weight adjustment is worth only .05 or .06, not the standard .10.

Tom

John, I could tell you how much this has "cost" me but would be concerned Carol would have a heart attack. LOL
Also, please continue your post on engine longevity, a subject not understood by many. I'm learning too!

 

Fantastic info in this thread! Thanks to Tom and all!

I've got a 12.30 @ 108 Skylark that oddly doesn't hook up with 28X10 ET Streets. There are probably 9 second cars on this board running the same tires and not spinning, yet mine spins running 12's. I'm definitely going to try the video tape thing and see if I can figure out whats up.

The car has a mild 455 build, TH400 3.42 gears, and a tight 11" converter. I've also got a 10" B&M converter that I bought off the board that will go in soon, I was hoping it would help her hook up but my luck is never that good :laugh:
The rear suspension has all Hotchkis control arms with their brace kit and the stock sway bar. I don't run air bags on this car, even though they always worked well on my turbo Buicks. Front suspension is stock with replacement springs and newer shocks (I plan to get some front drag shocks too)

 

combo

Gary, I figured I wouldn't include enough info, sorry. The car weighed 3760 at the GS Nationals this year. It has a 455 .030 over, T/A SE heads, SP1 intake, approx 10.25:1 compression, an old grind SP4 cam from lunati with approx .568 lift with roller rockers, TH400 trans with ATI treemaster 3500 stall converter. Using 30" x 9" goodyears. People tell me its not spinning on its best runs. They also tell me the front rises (doesn't pull the wheels) and that the rear doesn't squat, stays about same height at rear and car launches level.

 

Tom

Your knowledge in this area is overhelming. I was told this weekend that the NSCA guys were changeing there tires from side to side every two passes to keep the side walls in shape. I was told that one of them figures out how many runs he will make so that he is on a fresh chnge in the final round. Man it seems like a ton of work but if it is worth et I guess you do what you have to. I like the idea of every 5 to 6 passes my self I'm a little too fat and lazy for every two. o No:

 

Just for informations sake ( different car , class , weight,etc ) but on my chassis car I swap the tires after each pass. The car punishes the tires so bad with the stick and the horsepower it is needed. 8 passes the car slows down and at 10 passes they are ready for the "for sale" pile.
Welcome to class racing .
George in DC

 

Ever work with "stiff" sidewall tires?? Any extra life from a sidewall on a radial or stiff sidewall. I know that I believe Hooser makes a radial and M/T makes a "Stiff" sidewall. I figure a radial has some extra life but not sure about the stiffs. Also Goodyear is debuting a new 10.5 and 10.5W and wonder what you have heard on those. It seems racers are happy with them but haven't heard any chatter yet?o No:

 

I have heard and read about some new 10.5 and 10.5 w stuff that is coming out . I am waiting for my skylark to get out of the body shop so I can start fitting rear tires. I will be running a stick at the track in the Lark so my choices are a bit different. Although it is similar at the starting line to a trans brake car there is more "activity" at the gear changes.More chances for a radial to break loose again. Last time I really raced a small tire car there werent radial slicks so I want to try some stuff out to see what works.

On my big tire stuff... there are a few tires we have tested with .The stiff sidewall tends to be a slighlty heavier tire and affects both 60s and rt on my car.Its a few hundreths but it is consistently slower by the same amount.It shakes less but has a tendency to just blacktrack if I get too aggressive.When it blacktracks the data shows it is not accelerating as quickly--bad. I do not run a beadlock wheel and tire --yet-- but that is heavier too. Although I have plenty of power -- for my class-- I dont have current prostock power, so everything does not translate directly over . Soft sidewall stuff lets my car react quicker and the high growth helps if I want to add mph.

Remember that no matter what type of car, use the smallest tire possible that will hook the car up.

Anyway...
Hope this info helps all. Good luck
George in DC

 

shocks

I'm am in need of new rear shocks what do you guys use and what seems to work the best for stock type replacement right know I have been use comp. 3 way adjustables I to have been have traction issues but right now I'm putting a spool in the car gona try new shocks the ones in the car are 7 years old so it is time any input would be great!

 

I will second your comment about Tom! I have talked with him a couple times and he is an awesome guy and full of information. I would love to stand back and watch him in action. Same goes for yourself and John Zeruka. You guys gave me alot of good information. Thanks
Why is your car not leagal for GSE anymore, no cage? I know you told me before, I just cant remember.

 

good grief ! I get no love at all ? :TU:
george in dc

 

There, there, George... Does someone need a hug today. :laugh:

Thanks for the info on the tires. I have heard that most of the 28x10.5 Outlaw racers use the "S" tire. I guess the sidewall doesn't hold up log enough or tire shake becomes a problem. I think the "S" tire has a different sidewall compaired to a radial. I think it runs the "W" sidewall at the standard tread width.

Perry, no GSE?? Gotta be up to something.... :Brow:

 

The only reason Perry's car is not legal for GSE is that He chooses not to make the car NHRA legal for the speeds and ET's obtained. He has at every chance he can posted that he is not legal for GSE but he is only safety equipment away. I generally don't post on this when he does because he told me at Bowling Green that he understood the rule and understood why it was put in place. I also see these things turn into flames that get the party's involved no where. I have just gotten tired of seeing him post this so I just want everyone to know the class is not trying to keep him out all of the other cars that competed in GSE that went faster than 9.99 had there safety equipment on board Gary L added his in late February to be legal. I have no issue with Perry and would love to see him back in the class he is a great competitor and has one hell of a fast car. But it is up to him to update the safety issues not me or the class. I just want people to be safe and if the guy next to you isn't than you to are at risk.

 

No worry's Perry I was not upset I just wanted people to understand that you are a halo and two down bars from being legal. ou: As far as the GSE class being made up of streetcars that was done years ago. There are many of the cars that have competed over the years that get driven on the street including my new one. But most of the cars that are competitive have for years been more racecar than street. Yes my car has a parachute just there as a security blanket and can be removed with two bolts fiber glass hoods are on more hot rods than steel seems like heck half the trucks on the road today have them I think with cowl hoods and racing seats are for driver safety and are not required. As far as turn out we had as many cars at BG this year as we have had in years hell when the rules were way tougher than they are now we had the no more than 6 or 7 cars. Yes we made change to rules to get cars in by relaxing them we allowed car that already were in existence that were close to fitting in the ability to fit in. If you look at the old rules and how fast the cars were what would you have four cars left in the class most have been sold or are no longer that interested as yourself has become. Its to bad I like racing you and as far as that goes have just like you and always have. If you could come up with rules for a true streetcar class I will get it in at BG. I have tried to figure out how to make it fair to all the only thing I could figure was a 30 or 40 mile drive and run it on an index and most would not understand the index so they would not race it if it was there but make it happen and I will put you in charge and we will do it at BG. Sorry for jacking this thread I will go to another thread if we need to discuss such rules

 

True street???

Forget the cruise, too much hassle. What about a pump-gas, spec fuel class???? Sorry, but you guys started it.......Ok Perry, your turn?

 

OK back to some Rix Trix: Tom, about 15 years ago, I read in National Drgaster about springs that guys would use on the front caliper bolts that relieved residual brake tension from the rotors. Where do you guys buy these?
Ramin

 

George,
I love you too! :laugh: