Sure PM me your address I’ll send it to you. You can send payment when you receive it. I’m not using it anyway.
See post #6. The pictures are of one half of the seal in the block and the other half in the cap. The pictures aren’t the best, but the seal definitely protrudes a lot more from the cap than from the block. I did try the same half of these seal in the block and then in the cap. The results where the same … a lot more protrusion when in the cap. (Same with the other half of the seal.) When I have a chance I’ll measure the amount the seal protrudes from the block and from the cap.
Hmmm. This is kinda where I was going since you mentioned align hone twice, requiring the caps to be cut twice (that we know of). Shoutout to engine builders for questions... 1. How much cap cut is done for a first time align hone/bore to do it once and be done? 2. Will another shop do the same amount just to be done with it, not knowing it was done once already (or more times)? 3. Does anyone measure rear cap seal dimensions between 6 and 12 o'clock before/after? Devon
Just trying to get my brain working on potential failure modes here. And hey, it's Sunday and I haven't finished coffee yet! Measuring an inside diameter will always fail using two points, like a caliper, or even a telescopic snap gauge. We can get close, but the number we get will always be lower than actual. To do better, we need three points, like a cyl bore gauge. If there's a gross diametrical discrepancy here, it won't be found in the bearing bore diameter, that's already been machined. Rather, the seal bore/groove dimensions. The seal groove in the block will have the original semi-circle machine work. The cap's groove is gonna look like the top half of a football, if that makes it easier to visualize. Devon
Both halves of the seal protrude 0.100” from the cap when the other side of the seal is flush with the parting line. I’m guessing my cap has been cut too much and that’s what’s causing the problem. When I trimmed the Cadillac seal I used the cap as a guide and followed the rear main seal install sticky and my seal was too short after I trimmed it. (See post #1)
I received Tom's seal and test fit it into my 70 455 "uncut" cap. It fits like the other TA 1516 seal, with around .014" sticking out of one side. So 2 different seals in one cap, and another seal in a 71 block that has a line hone done, and all are "direct fits" and have no issues. Add the old TA Ford direct-fit seal in my 71 block for 13 years, and I am on a winning streak I suppose.
Bob the picture I illustrated with the seal was also an uncut cap. and as you could see, it did stick out quite a bit on the one side. I suppose there is a difference in the grooves in the caps. That’s why TA’s instructions are to pre-fit and remove material when necessary.Glad it worked out for you.
Tom is correct here.. I recall seeing the block blueprint, and there being a ton of variation allowed in that groove size. I could did out my block blueprint, but I'm too busy to fool with that triva right now, take my word for it... Rope seal did not really care.. One thing you learn after building over a hundred of these things is that the surest way to make a fool of yourself is to claim an absolute.. about anything.. And there is no such thing as a "No Trim" rear main seal.. not for every 455 Buick factory block out there, and it's why the TA instructions are written how they are. "usually no trim" would be a better way to describe it. Build enough of them you will figure that out. Usually the hard way. The ones I really love are those that don't leak a drop on the test stand or dyno, but start leaking in the car after a few hundred miles.. Those have cost me thousands of dollars to fix... since I don't make excuses on my products or work. I just got the first TA 1516 rear seal in the door to work with, I will let you know what I find out with it. JW
I can see why JW chooses to use the BOP one piece seal. It’s way more pliable,conforms better,is more forgiving than any other seal out there. Yes it is a pain in the ass to install. Also, the dual lip design is a true performance seal. And for those who still prefer a two piece seal, I would choose the BOP version because of the same reasons of being a more performance oriented seal.
Bob, I’m glad the seal fit perfectly in your engine. I’ll let you know when I receive your payment for the seal. Thanks, Tom
Bob, I don’t think it serves any purpose to keep going back-and-forth with what your cap measures and my cap measures. these dinosaur engines,Buick olds,Pontiac that were designed for rope seals obviously had a wide tolerance for that groove. There is no absolute in these engines for a rear main seal you are going to have from time to time differences in where you need to modify the seal, and even sometimes adding shims behind it.That is common practice building some of these engines. That’s why BOP engineering and TA puts it in their instructions that before you install, you must check and verify preload. I,like you have had success with some of these seals. However, if you do enough of them, you will come an across some that need to be modified. It’s really not that big of a deal. Where we get in trouble is somebody on a tech line tells someone who doesn’t have a lot experience with building an engine that the seal does not have to be trimmed. That doesn’t do anybody any good. like I said, I’m glad to see the seal will work for you.
Tom, I measured for you and bought and installed your seal proving that TA didn't have quality issues on your seal vs mine. All of a sudden the back and forth on cap measurements doesn't matter? Absolutely there are variances from block to block, and as such, every "professional" builder to hacks like myself needs to verify, measure, test fit, etc a lot of things. I am still curious on your cap groove measurements. Yes, TA's wording needs some updating. Retrofitting a rubber/neoprene/viton seal in place of a rope seal on any engine does not have guaranteed perfect results even when the best care is taken. Jim, do you recall which seal you used in Utica Geoff's first build and the subsequent rebuild after the oil burning situation? What did you use to replace it when it leaked badly in a few miles after I installed that engine? Any ideas on what to do next, as it appears to be leaking yet again along with a few other things? Old engines are hard to seal up. I've been fighting that for 40 years. Misery loves company.
Bob, your last post about measurements reflected obviously the width of the groove. We were not talking about that. The issue is with the ID of the groove after you corrected your calipers to the very outer edge of your cap if your measurement was correct, you got a .010 difference 3.982 versus mine, which was 3.972 that would be enough to put the sealed deeper in the groove. I think we can both except that there is no absolute in the seal fitment. Let’s leave it at that and call it a day.
