Ya, call me the "Bad guy".. that's ok.. Comes with the title.. it's a bad job, but somebody has to do it. Guys.. Lets get back to what we once had here, a good place to give some good natured jabs at each other, share news on the series, and just general BS'ing. Understand this though.. I have an obligation, to the members of this board who so generously support it, to keep the place clean.. Clean from language, sex content, and all that crap.. just a nice car board.. sometime with heated debates over certain issues, but never crossing the line into personal attacks. A few of you have been doing the Two-step on that line this last week. Now.. why... The rules apply to everyone.. The rules apply to me as much as anyone, and you can bet if I have to follow them, and pay the bills and do the work to make this site a reality, they are going to apply to you.. We all need to be careful of what we say and do, in public. It's not about being PC, it's about adult behavior, and about keeping our eyes on the goal.. to further the class as a whole. Making enemies out of the PS guys will not do that, since they are the guys who would naturally progress to the class. Not all of them, but some of them for sure. I am in the car business.. and there are a couple of folks in my little world, that I don't get along with at all.. But I have learned that having knock down, drag outs on the internet does neither party any good. The recent feuds in the SA category will hurt the series in general, due to "turning off" folks from participating. Also, the issue of participants making the rules, is a tough one at best. The 4 guys on that commitee now need to understand that I don't mean that they are in "cahoots" to keep others from participating.. I don't beleive that at all.. But as with many things in life, it's all about the Perception of the public, not the reality.. Consider the major sanctioning bodies, and the rules that they have for the "heads up" classes .. NHRA for example.. Yes, the do take in the input of all the current racers. Then, with a panel of knowledgeable folks, they make the rules. And enforce them. - Plan on taking your car apart, as required, in this enforcement senario. SA has some pretty lenient rules, and plenty of "gray areas". And until the end of fossil fuels as we know them, they are set in stone, with the only exception being new safety concerns due to increasing performance, and the advent of new Technology. Once that technology has been tested in a few cars, and found to be a performance advantage. With all the hoopla over the Timing control stuff, everyone assumes it will be.. that could be a dangerous assumption, until it is proven. I have seen many folks say they will not build a car to race this class, due to rules instability. I don't blame them. Over a year ago, I volunteered to be the Buick guy, on the rules committee.. and suggested that willing individuals, with experience in the other makes involved, be contacted, and sanctioning body be set up, to develop, and enforce the rules of this exciting new form of racing, and to promote the class. This type of heads up class needs to be ever evolving.. read that going faster.. as soon as it stays the same for too long, or slows down, the interest in it will subside. I have seen this happen with other similar classes in the past. It also needs an infusion of $$... we can all sit here, and say we don't do this for the cash.. but the fact of the matter it that it cost a pile of dough to not only build the cars and compete, but also to administer and enforce the rules, and to set up the races. So there is a money factor here, just like everything else in life. What.. nobody here wants to go to an NHRA event, for an "exhibition"... uzzled: .. $5K to win?... major sponsorships..?? I was rebuffed at that time, with the "we know what is best" argument. At that point in the series, I could understand that, but knew then that this situation would be re-visited sometime down the road. Now, a year later, here we sit, with old friends calling each other names, and a class that may have reached it's performance peak. In any event... Since I am rambling.. Try this on.. as a rule that I would have changed.. Racing brakes.. Safety issue? Yes.. if your car had drum front brakes, then going to a racing disc brake setup will in fact make the car stop faster. I have had a 120 MPH 4100 lbs GS with drum front brakes.. scary is the only word to describe it.. And disc front brakes will make the car stop better... Right up to the point of the tires being the limiting factor. Remember, brakes stop the wheels, tires stop the car. But here is the catch.... Cars switching to front disc brakes, must either use the un-modified factory option for that car line in the appropriate years, or must use an aftermarket kit, which weights as much, or more, than the original equipment drum brakes. If that option is not possible, and with the consent of the sanctioning body, cars may install rear disc brakes, as any performance advantage of the rear discs will be much less than "super light", or even medium duty front discs. Now.. what's not fair about that? It is my impression that unless the current system is overhauled shortly, and the rules are written in stone, that there may be a rough road ahead for this class. I am offering to help once again, where and how I can. regards, JW
I think this says it all!!! :TU: I was backing up on my decision to build a SA car from the "ole green" I like having fun at the races Im not going to want to "go to battle" just to race thats a pile of BS!!! If people take the fun out of it Im not going ....ever........
This is too bad ....... I used to sneak in here and hope and wish I could "play" too someday. But now.......no way am I even thinking about it. It was fun to watch in the beginning and try and follow all that happened. And try and figure out how to go and have fun too. As it has progressed though, in my opinion, money and egos have taken over. If you have enough money then fine you can play...........but if you say something I don't like and bruise my fragile ego, I will sue your :moonu: , or call you names, or throw a basic fit on the board. Just doesn't sound like much fun to me anymore personally. Yall do the most amazing things with your cars. Greg 's car, Jim H.'s car, Dave D.'s , etc. etc. I mean really, why can't ya just have fun anymore ? You don't make enough(i dont think) to take it "that" serious do you ? Or are you egos so large that you have to be the best, or whatever, to feel good ? I know NONE of you all personally. This is what I see from the "grandstands". And to think, just a couple weeks ago I was actually talking to my dad about selling my racecar and trying this with a G.T.O. that I have spotted :shock: . Now I think it would be easier, and provide a lot less stress, just to build a super stock NHRA car(and YES I have worked in that arena, and fully understand what I just said). Just my opinion here guys, I look forward to the thread being back up and running soon so I can continue to watch, wish and hope............. PLEASE, just go have fun again.............................. p.s....................and so yall don't have to say it to yourselves, I will ..........."an opinion from a nobody, in the middle of nowhere".
SA racing Its the golden rule, The man with gold rules! I use to have alot of respect for this class, but after watching this group of guys attack each other on here I've lost that respect! It's been like watching rich spoiled rotten little kids fighting over the same toy in the sand box and then the toy ends up getting broken so nobody else can enjoy it. You guys are in the spot light or maybe you guys don't realize just how big your following is. PLEASE get it together before its to late! If You Race In This Class you should NOT be making the rules for this same class. NHRA does what it does for a reason, This would never ever happen Stock/Super Stock racing. Take Jim.w offer to help, I agree 100% with what he has to say on this subject. (Is this a first J.W:grin: ) Good luck next season and most of all HAVE FUN...Chris
FWIW I think the *cooling off period* was a good idea. Come Sunday, we'll see what happens, again. I was out of town when the last tidbits started, so I have no clue what else was said or deleted. The SA concept, in and of itself, is just an awesome deal. But, I think some ego's need to be checked at the door.. So, after MUCHO thought, I can see where I *think* the four organizers want it to go. Which is, an extension of the Pure Stock Drags, in APPEARANCE. The cars really shouldn't *look* any different than it's PS/FS counterparts, which I think is their current thinking for the future.. So as not to show any favoritism on this SA forum by me, I am going to ask that Greg Gessler join me as a moderator for this topic. A substantial part of the bickering has centered around Mighty Mouse, and I need to move on in life.... Without a doubt, I want to see this series flourish. However, I am personally NOT removing my MSD box, nor am I removing the X-pipe from MM. I will change out the D7 for a 6AL, but thats it for me for changes. I am not below the 11.70 window, so it's really a mute point anyways. I am still concerned about the seat belt upgrades, and *tire quality* issue. Other than that, I'm fine with anything else. Any car running 115+, should have upgraded belts and valve stems required. In Daytona Beach last weekend, I ran into 7 different people expressing their thoughts on SA. Again, without a doubt, this BB forum has been a centerpiece for SA talk, and EVERY person that approached/emailed me, reads this forum on a regular, if not multi-daily basis. JW and I want to retain that forum. I have to go to cold NJ tomorrow to pick up another boat I just bought, so when I return on Sunday night, we'll try this again. J :beer
NHRA? I think I've counted three times in this thread, where the multi-million dollar "not for profit" NHRA is compared to the all volunteer grassroots SA movement. Seems a little unrealistic to me. uzzled: I think there may be a slight difference in resources available.
Four guy's with the Four fastest (quickest) cars DO NOT need to make the rules, I have ment them and think there all good people but it just doesn't "Appear Correct". I think it would also be a good thing to put a little more though into the casting numbers issue, I have a car I would love to run but there's no way I will because I can't use same year exhaust manifolds or modifiy mine. Add to that a very small carb and you know why there will never be a 383 or 440 GTS dart in stock appearing, though they would make a nice addition to the class.
I don't think anyone here knows me, but I've been following SA racing since it's started and have really thought about building one of my cars to race in it. The problem with this class, at least in my opinion, is that it's turning into an NHRA Stocker class where everything is heads up. That sounds OK at first, but, at least NHRA stocker racing is bracket racing until you run someone in your own class. Well, what does that have to do with anything? Well, it means that even Joe Schmoe that can't afford all of the latest, trickest stuff still has a chance at winning the race, and in SA you don't. The only way to fix most of the problems in SA is to, basically make it a bracket race. I KNOW that sounds horrible, but hear me out. This is what I would do, if asked. Make this class a "Stock Appearing From the Stands" class, until your car is quicker than 11.50 at an IHRA track or 12.0 at an NHRA track. What that means is, don't even pop the hood, except to check for an overflow bottle and dual return springs, nothing else. What that does is let the smaller buck guys that have nice appearing, stock looking cars, run, even though they may have headers, an aluminum intake, bigger carb.........whatever. If your car goes faster, you have to adhere to the "Pure Stock Appearing rules." What most drag racers don't understand is, Drag Racing is about the spectater, not the racer. NHRA racing is entertainment for the Spectater. Spectaters really don't care what's under the hood, because they can't even see under there from the stands. They want to see heads up racing action. I've got two cars that I'd bring, that I know won't run quicker than 12.0's on redlines (my cars run 110 to 115MPH), just so I could race against similar appearing cars. If you're racing for a best two out of three, what's it matter what's under the hood as long as the cars ET really close? I LOVE beating on my cars and running in really close races, win or lose. If SA racing is about the "spirit" of racing stock appearing cars, then why even check casting numbers? In my book, that's out of the spirit. Try to imagine NHRA Stock or Super Stock racing, today, if there wasn't any bracket racing in those classes. What would the turnout be? Yes, the SS/AA shootout is popular, but those cars still bracket race and the fast guys in those classes have really deep pockets. I don't believe you'll ever see hundreds of cars in SS/AA shooting it out. I know that by doing that, the class would lose some of it's appeal, but there isn't much choice, at least in my book. By keeping the class to where if you go faster than the rollbar rule, you have to adhere to the "Pure Stock Appearing rules ," you keep the deep pocket guys with the big ego's. Gessler's proved that you don't need two carbs, Hemi heads, and cast iron headers to be low ET, but for the average Joe, it's cheaper to build a nice 455 with headers, aluminum intake, and aftermarket carb and go out and have some fun with his car, after all, that's what these cars were built for. Why turn away a guy that's got a '69 Z/28 because he installed the crossram that came in the trunk of his car? At least he's got enough cojones to be out beating on it, and as long as he doesn't go quicker than the rollbar rule, he's not hurting anything. Just my .02
This sounds strangely familiar...... Don't know about the bracket racing aspect (2/3 match race by qualifying time has got to be the greatest overall spectator forum), but I think you and I agree on the who cares what's under the hood. You're going to run someone else just as fast. Bracket racing brings too much B.S. into the game. NHRA Sportsman has gotten to be the most boring thing in the world to watch as the cars launch hard, go 1/2 track at half throttle (so it seems), and then pour it on for the last part of the race (where nobody's watching). Appears to be controlled by the computer, so you may as well sit at your PC and turn up the volume. I do agree that the heads up FAST bracket format is good for the top 4 or 5, and the rest is chum. Now that they're putting the clamps on getting faster, it may become more competitive, certainly safer. M/P is a great start to filling the void between the Pure Stock guidelines and the Friday night bracket racing at most tracks across the nation. Lots of fun racing another car equal to yours in performance in a best 2/3 format.......for the spectators and the participants.
Re: This sounds strangely familiar...... What I meant by "bracket racing," was, if you keep the cars at or slower than the rollbar rule, there will eventually be lots of cars running right on the number, so it will basically, be a bracket race, with everyone having the same dial in (11.50 or 12.0) and leaving at the same time. Our local track has a class just like that, and that's what I currently run my cars in. It's a 12.0 index class run with a 4/10s tree. It sounds pretty boring, but it's actually pretty fun because both cars leave at the same time and it's hard to redlight on a 4/10s tree!!! As long as you don't run quicker than 12.000 and you get there first, you win. I agree 100% I like the idea of having a quick 8 field that gets money just for qualifying, at least that way, the deep pocket/big ego guys that adhere to the rules 100% and run that good, get some monetary return on their investment. Check out my website @ www.waynesmoparrestorations.com
Very Impressive Nice website! Impressive cars even if they are Mopars.:moonu: Being as old as I am, I recall the Lawman car in the 60's. I agree with what you're saying about keeping the cars at or below the rollbar rule or restricting them in any way on F.A.S.T. I personally think they'd be better off with a 2/3 format, but that's up to them. Quick 8's, gamblers' races, etc. are always fun and a great addition to the main course of any event. I also like the pro tree whether it be 4/10 or 5/10 and has been quite successful at the events that have tried it. I personally hate the sportsman tree with a small block 4 speed car on these tires. This new M/P class is really exciting. Those old factory and dealer cars are really neat in NMCA/NSCA NSS and Pro Nostalgia. I think there's a lot of other cars that will make this event self supporting and a lot of fun for a lot of new people. Sure is for us.
Thanks for the compliments on my site, my cousin made it and keeps it up and he's busy with women problems, so he hasn't updated it in a whileo No: That probably isn't the same Lawman car that you remember. The car I have was owned and raced by Dan Dvorak (he owns it now too). The famous Lawman car was owned by a factory backed racer, Al Eckstrand. Dvorak only ran on the East coast mainly in Florida. I agree on the 2/3 format, and still keep the quick 8 cars, if the turnout is big enough. I haven't really looked into the M/P class, I guess I'll have to:beer .
