So I was looking into buying a set of 71 heads that were converted over to stage 1 heads. All parts installed have been T/A and they are ready to bolt on, never used. They have new guides, surfaced, 3 angle valve job, bowl cut, port work done, 10,000 off of them for decking, and 68-70 cc's. They have bronze valve guides, don't come with rocker arms, and they do not have hardened seats. I have a set of iron 72 heads I was going to convert over to Stage 1's, but I ran across these ones already done. So I suppose I was wondering for a car that will see the gas pedal alot, and we know these days gas is not like the old leaded, would it be a huge deal to have a set of heads like this without hardened seats? Will they last? And if someone did not have paper work on them for the machine work and if you were in my postion does it sound like a good deal. Money is not the factor in this deal since it involves trades. I just want to get some feedback on the pros and cons of these heads. Any help appreciated.
Andrew, I say go with the 71 heads already done. It's a better head from what I've been told. You can easily spend 1200 or better trying to duplicate those 71 heads. And with the new aluminum heads out. The price of the steel heads has come down considerably. I think the 72 heads was the begining of the so called smog heads 72 thru 76. That's my just my opinion I've been known to be wrong.
Andrew No valve seats are needed but unless they are redone, well ported and under $ 1000.00 for the set and complete get the TA aluminum heads for more performance right out of the box. You are not building a concours car, you can paint them if you like.There is more detonation margin so you can run a lower grade gas or add more compression.
Jim, in your opinion, how much would it cost to add aluminum heads, out of the box, no extra work done to them? Do you need to add other parts like a different dipstick, etc.? How much are "bolt on" AL heads? Thanks, Chris
I would look for the old TA sale add in the Buid Sheet. Since Bulldog is coming out with some I would think another sale could happen. JW would also know the former sale price. As I recall they are the same dimensions outside ( or real close) as the iron heads.
Stock Buick and TA Aluminum head differences aside from performance: The TA Stage 1 aluminum heads appear to be, unless carefully examined, identical to stock Buick iron heads. Top notch work; Mike paid close attention to detail here and it really shows. I talked to him about this, and he was very aware of needs of various owners who might not like to change the looks of the heads visually. Maybe even FAST legal? I dunno, but they are about 98% identical to stock heads in appearance Diffrences: If you use head studs, you're going to have to use four 9/16" 12 point nuts (that's from memeory, double-check, TA has them), two per head, for clearance, since the exhaust side was redesigned so much. Resist the urge to hog the clearanced area out, use the right thing, they are 12 bucks for the nuts I believe. Not a big deal, I ordered mine locally and had them next day for 13 bucks and change after the special order charge. There are flats for the extra 4 head bolt holes, undrilled, on the heads Dipstick flange needs to be bent very slightly to fit on the TA heads Intake manifold heat chamber will be used differently with these heads. The TA heads feature coolant flow, and not air flow, when using these heads. The heads come with the passages blocked off. I am using the Felpro composite head gasket and the bathtub type intake gasket with zero issues with these heads I'd recommend some type of coolant corrosion inhibitor to counter dis-similar metal corrosion here's a visual on how stock the TA Stage 1 heads look This is my Dad, steadying the engine so I can drop it in, from late November:
On the stand; good shot of the most seen part of the head note: I had to mask and paint the heads, they come as-cast. Oh, I almost forgot- I should have asked TA to take 0.020" off the exhaust side, for header clearance. It was a reall hassle bolting up my headers. My iron heads had been milled 20 thou to get a flat surface for sealing and gasket replacement was a breeze. i wish I'd asked them to take a little material off
Oh- if you look closely on that last pic, you can see how little dipstick tube flange needs to be re-bent to cover the TA head's hole- the flange is in it's un-altered position, to fit my old heads, in the pic. A little courage and a vise-grip did the job :laugh: Although as you can see, I chipped the paint on the dipstick handle getting a grip on that so I could bend the flange.
Maybe I should have been a bit clearer with this, they are not aluminum T/A stage 1 heads, rather iron heads that are converted to stage 1 heads with all T/A parts on them. All that has been done to them is listed on my first post. I was wondering with what was done to them is it worth picking them up in a trade, even though they don't have any paperwork on the machining, and they also do not have hardened seats? They are new and not used. Kind of looking for a plus and minus type deal, since if these don't work out I am starting with a set of 70 heads from scratch to convert over to stage 1's.
We understand that. What we are saying is that if you are having to pay or trade the equivalent of $1000 for a complete iron set of Stage 1 iron heads you would be better off getting the aluminum TA heads. They are so much better. You would be hard pressed to find a competition ported set of iron heads for sale that will flow as good as the Al heads do out of the box with no porting work. I take it that since there is no flow paper work with the ones you are considering they may not be anything extra in the flow department. That is where the power is. A ported set of small valve heads will outflow stock stage 1 iron heads. On the outside they look the same.
I would not be paying anywhere close to the $1,000 price, they are said to have had alot of port work done on them, supposedly more than the stage 1's. I just can't afford to dish out that much money for the aluminum heads.
Now I am confused Chris asked if any additonal things were needed for the Aluminum heads. Jim hadn't replied yet, so I let some pictures tell the story of what the al heads were like I am 100% aware that your head question was for iron heads
My fault guys, I should have asked my question in a new thread, rather than making this one confusing. I am sorry. Chris
Andrew, What I've found over the years to be true is that that all port jobs aren't created equal. I would much rather have a set of heads port by some that knows Buicks than someone who ports chevys heads for a living. I learned a valuable lesson years back.I let a machine shop that didn't know buicks do my short block had to do it all over again. I would try to find out who ported those heads and make a decision base on the the track record of the the porter. Heads ported by the better buick porters aren't cheap. But the look on your competitions face when you show them your tail lights will take the sting out of the price. This is one of the best buick porters conversion and porting prices. http://www.gesslerheadporting.com/members/gesslerheadporting/ghp.nsf/822dcaaaa26c6da985256dd80023623d/e7a2fa3e738d643985256de800493e18!OpenDocument
I would verge to say that he spent around $1000 on them, and I will be trading parts worth a value of around $600, if this helps you any. They have never been used before, he just finished putting them together, he just decided to go with the aluminum heads insted, for the weight I suppose. The only big issue to me is the heads not having hardened seats, but still not sure if that will play into problems later on down the road. I know I will have to travel down the same road as this guy to do my heads, and it will run me around $1000 to have them done. He said the machine shop has done a lot of work on buick motors for him before, this does not mean any head work though until these stage 1 heads. But he said he has had good luck with them before on prior motor work on the 455's. But what plays into this equation also is dealing with my father who is "oh no, a Ford guy", and he is really pesimistic when dealing with motors and machine work, which is not a bad thing. He wants to see them checked for the correct cc's, and he is just critical on everything because he does not want to see me waste my money on something I will possibly have to redo later on down the road.
Andrew' Check this thread out and listen closely to Jim Weise response. http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=38888&highlight=harden+seats
What we are talking about with "hardened seats" here is seat inserts, and no Buick head ever had them from the factory to my knowledge.. certainly not 71-74 stuff. I do believe there was a process done to the heads, to "harden" the seat area of the exhaust.. in the casting, but I will have to do some reasearch on that.. And Andrew, if you said that it had hardened seat inserts then I would tell you it would be a crap shoot, as to if they are going to leak or not, when put into use. Depends on the castings, and who is doing them.. Since it does not have hardened seats, then they should be ok. If you have any question about them, have the guy ship one here for inspection. JW
Hey there Jim how much would you charge me to inspect one of the heads if I sent it to you? It would be worth it to me to get your professional opinion on how they stand.
