Dear V-8 Buick tranny experts, My trusty 1965 Buick Special wagon has a 200-4R with a lock-up torque converter. Unfortunately, EZ-EFI doesn't include the ability to control such a tranny. So Greg at Orinda Motors has given me question of which aftermarket wiring kit to use. He mentioned two - the TCI kit: http://www.tciauto.com/tc/200-4r-700-r4-lock-up-wiring-kit.html and the B&M kit: http://bmracing.com/?wpsc-product=c...rans-wlockup-converter-mechanical-speedometer These two systems work on different principles. The TCi kit uses vacuum pressure as an indicator of whether you are driving at a steady speed or accelerating. The B&M system is connected to the mechanical speedometer and presumably detects acceleration that way. I make a quick check of the postings on V-8 Buick and see a number of "it don't work none - please help!" postings for each system. Just to be perverse there appeared to be about the same number for each system. So no obvious consensus there. So what is the opinion of those who have gone with either system? What sort of driving experience do they give? Anyone have experience with both and can offer a comparison? Anything about either system that is important to know about when installing? Opinions solicited!! :Smarty: Cheers, Edouard :beer
I have the TCI kit in my car right now and it works reasonably well. You need a good steady vacuum and a not too tall converter for it to work well. My converter is a little loose and I drop too many RPM when it locks and it lugs. I've got it adjusted so that it hits 4th then a split second later it locks. It will drop out of lockup under heavier load and if you are in the throttle when it shifts. I looked at the B&M one and figured it should be good as you can set it for a MPH instead of a vacuum level. But, at half the cost, the TCI was worth a shot. Not sure how the B&M will react to throttle. I often wondered if both would be the ideal situation. No lockup below 40MPH, kick out with throttle.
Interesting thought. (Re: TCI vs B&M lock-up torque converter systems) HI Greg and V-8 Buick lovers, Sounds like this system would work fine in my trusty wagon. May JW masterpiece engine pulls a ton of vacuum, so that won't be a problem. I like your thought. Yes, that would be a better overall solution to only lock-up at freeway speeds and then use vacuum to decided when to release. Oh well . . . . Still, the TCI system seems like a viable choice. Thanks for your opinion!! :TU: Cheers, Edouard :beer
I have used both and prefer the TCI kit. Also be sure to add a lighted toggle switch in line with the TCI vacuum switch so that you can override the system and shut off the lockup when towing, going up hills, or any other time you do not want the lockup function enabled. This way you have 2 settings: auto locking based off vacuum levels, and off. I pickup about 1-2 MPG when using the lockup function, and the trans runs cooler... I typically shut off the lockup when going up hills unless I am revving over 2200 RPM, this keeps the engine from lugging. Also be sure to use a brake switch so that your lockup shuts off when you hit the brakes... I almost wrote off my truck after the truck stalled when I did a panick stop... Let me tell you it is no fun having the vehicle stall when you are trying to steer and brake with no power brakes or steering.
Bowler performance transmission has there own setup as well. I was thinking of tryi it. https://bowlertransmissions.com/p/99/200-r4-lock-up-control-module
I considered plumbing something like this into mine with a programable delay to engagement, 6+ seconds sounds like a workable value for the price. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MINI-TIMER-...al_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3f1eec7182
Bowler kit - how does it work? (Re: TCI vs B&M lock-up kit - recommendations?) Dear Sean, Sabotage_666, Greg and V-8 Buick tranny experts, Thanks Sean for your advice! :TU: It is a especially appreciated since you have tried both. Thanks also for the recommendation to include a brake control disconnect. It is a obvious thing to have, surprised it isn't built into all the kits. Okay, I took a look at their website, but I am a little confused. Does it always activate the lock-up converter after 8 seconds? I'm not sure I want this when the car is cruising at 35 mph. Our cars with overdrive frequently drop into overdrive at as little as 35 mph. The other thing that is not explained is how does it determine that the lock-up converter needs to be disengaged? Sean's story about an engine stalling seems very relevant to this question! Anybody know? Cheers, Edouard :beer
Re: Bowler kit - how does it work? (Re: TCI vs B&M lock-up kit - recommendations?) Basically there are a few times when the torque converter should be un-locked: 1. When Accelerating from a stop. The torque converter function is to add some torque multiplication to the drive train, basically in the form of slippage. This helps the RPM raise up quickly and get the engine into it's "power band" or effective RPM range. Being that your engine has such a broad torque range the engine can tolerate being locked 100% to the transmission and still power up large hills at low RPM. If you were using a lockup converter trans with your 300 Engine then you would find that the only real usable time to use the lockup would be when at full speed on the highway, not up a large hill. This is due to the lack of power of the engine and the fact that making the engine 100% locked to the trans makes it bog down more unless the RPM are up high enough, and or the load is low against the vehicle. 2. When going down hills. You get better fuel mileage going down hills at light throttle or coasting if you have the lockup dis-engaged. With most "auto" on/off kits the lockup will stay engaged when going down hills EVEN if you touch the brakes because the kits do not have the brake switch. Even with a brake switch it is nice to have the manual over ride switch so you can just flip the toggle switch to off while you coast down the hill... less RPM on the engine down the hill and better fuel mileage. The car will never coast well with the lockup engaged, it slows down quickly when you let off the fuel. 3. Drag racing or even just full throttle street driving. Not many lockup converters are designed to handle more than about 400 HP during lockup. By their design the typical converters are really light duty unless you go with a really high end converter. I have a lockup converter for the 4L80E in my Skylark and it was $950, and even then it is only rated to hold about 600 HP when locked up, compared to 1000+ HP when in the non-locked mode. 5. When going up a hill and the engine is under it's peak torque curve RPM, sometimes the engine lugs a bit. If this happens while the lockup is engaged then the engine bogs till you at more throttle which wastes fuel. If the lockup dis-engages immediately when the engine starts to chug down or lug then the engine quickly recovers and easily climbs up the hill without much if any more throttle and a slightly higher RPM due to the "slippage" in the converter. So with all the above criteria for selecting when the lockup is on or off, you can see why many of us just prefer to switch it on and off ourselves using a $5 lighted toggle switch (normally open type), and a $6 brake switch off of the brake light circuit (normally closed type). Both of these switches are added to the ground side circuit of the converter wiring to the trans and no need to take apart the trans etc. The trans always gets 12V from a ignition switched source, but it is the ground side of the circuit that you want the switches on. Having the switches on the positive side of the circuit can shorten the life of the system. An example: When I got my 91 GMC 2500, 5.7, 7004R, 3.73 it drove fine however the lockup was not engaging at all. The brake switch had failed and was keeping the lockup off all the time... Fuel mileage was lower than expected, and the RPM on the highway were up there. I fixed the brake switch and then the converter was locking up off the factory specified system which relied on vacuum, speed, trans gear, brakes on or off, etc to control the lockup. My fuel mileage did improve however I was lacking a lot of part throttle acceleration and power to the wheels. The reason was the lockup was engaging at the wrong times. I added a toggle switch in the system and then I had two settings. 1. Auto, and 2. Off. This worked fine except sometimes I would turn on the lockup and then the computer would shut it off depending on one of the other variables... This annoyed me so I bought the TCI kit and installed it, then the B&M.... I never was happy till I just ran the toggle switch for on off and the brake switch. Then it was simple. Lockup when I wanted it and no lockup when I did not want it. This gave me the ability to do things like select 3rd gear instead of overdrive and then go hauling at 80 MPH up a hill with the lockup engaged in 3rd gear giving 100% efficiency with the lockup, no hunting (shifting gears rapidly) of the trans, no lockup coming on and off (burning them out), and less throttle required to get up MASSIVE hills even towing trailers and a less than HIGH HP engine. The best time to have the converter locked is when you are at a steady RPM on the highway. The other types of driving from starts and stops, acceleration etc you will not want the lockup engaged. You will get more use out of the lockup being that your engine has so much torque and HP from idle to 5000 RPM, so that is a good thing... A gutless engine makes less use of the lockup I find.... A good example of a stronger engine liking the lockup better is the same GMC 2500... After adding a new crate engine the engine enjoyed lockup way better and can now get up large hills with the lockup engaged and the engine not lugging or bogging... Before with the worn out engine it could only tolerate the lockup at full speed and light load. I like the lockup feature so much that is the main reason I went to an overdrive trans in my Skylark... I refuse to drive a vehicle without having the option to lock up the converter. Once you go to it then it is tough to go back to a non lockup or gosh forbid non-overdrive trans... I plan to leave the line at 3600 RPM when drag racing and have a max performance no compromise torque converter, and then have 100% lockup and cruise at 2000 RPM on the highway vs the 2800 RPM it was stock.... The turbos will keep the little 355 inch engine powerful even at low RPM.
I went with a very simple system. Manual switch with brake disconnect. No problem for me because I like to be involved with driving the car. But I think you have different goals. Basically put the car in D and have it do it's thing. What would be cool is pull any old computer out of a car (like a GN) and have that control the trans. Way beyond my pay grade but I have a friend that uses Corvette brakes and the GM controller to run anti lock on his 69 Camaros. But for us mortals you could get close. 1. Brake disconnect switch. 2. TCI system so you can set the speed that the lock up kicks in. That is basically what I do manually. With my cam that is about 40 MPH. 3. B&M system to unlock when you do part throttle acceleration. Thought about that but with low vac motor not worth it for me but would work great on your motor. 4. Delay box. Not sure if this is really needed because it seems like there is some delay in the trans as is. Trans shifts into OD then engages the lock up clutch. Will have to drive mine and see if it is just me doing this manually or that is how it works. At most you would need a second or two on the delay. Would be fun to get all of this to work together.
More choices - huh? (Re: lock-up torque converter systems - recommendations?) Dear Sean, Doug, and V-8 Buick tranny experts, Thanks for your thoughts on this problem. Alas, a little knowledge (and Google) is a dangerous thing! :shock: Trying to make sense of how the Bowler system worked I found this review of lock-up kits and . . . . . oops, I found a few more choices. Here is the review: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/carburetors/492891-tcc-control.html Included is the collection is another kit by Painless Performance: http://www.painlessperformance.com/webcatalog/largeview.php?SearchField=60110 It appears to be more complete than the TCI kit because it includes the brake switch. It is more expensive, but I assume the brake switch will cost something and I'll get dinged on labor if there are too many add-ons. Sadly, looking over all this I know exactly what I want. I want the ability of prevent lock-up at lower speeds of the B&M system, I want the delay feature of the Bowler system, and I want the basic functionality of the Painless Performance system - all in one kit. Grumble, grumble. grumble, . . . . . why does this always happen to me!!?!?! :af: Grin and bear it, Edouard
Re: More choices - huh? (Re: lock-up torque converter systems - recommendations?) That's what I said. :Smarty: Good link on the 3rd Gen site. Lots of sharp people there.
Re: More choices - huh? (Re: lock-up torque converter systems - recommendations?) Hi Doug and V-8 Buick tranny experts, Yeah, I know . . . . . . but that doesn't give me any way to make one! :rant: I was over at Orinda Motors checking out a glove box liner prototype and I reported to Greg what I had learned about these lock-up kits. He really doesn't like the complexity of the Painless Performance kit installation and the fact it replaces OEM parts with custom parts. In contrast, Greg has installed the TCI kit on one of his cars. He likes the way that kit works when driving. So the consensus is pointing toward a TCI kit and separate brake switch. Anyone else got some thoughts on this topic? Thanks for all the good idears!! Cheers, Edouard :beer
Re: More choices - huh? (Re: lock-up torque converter systems - recommendations?) It will work if adjusted properly and you'll be fine. I'm running that way now. I'm about to wire in an "off" switch just so I can keep it unlocked around town at 35MPH.
Would prefer a "solution." (Re: lock-up torque converter systems - recommendations?) Hi Greg and V-8 Buick tranny experts, That seems to be the consensus around here, but . . . . . . . *heavy sigh* . . . . . . . . I'm putting a lot of time trying to make the dash look nice and now I've got find a spot to hide this switch. I know the economy is lousy, but these manufacturers need to really try to harder to make their products a complete solution instead of one part of a solution you need to build for yourself. Oh well, . . . . . . . Edouard
Re: Would prefer a "solution." (Re: lock-up torque converter systems - recommendatio You could use a dimmer switch for an off and on switch. Keep the dash switch free.:TU: Bob H.
Re: Would prefer a "solution." (Re: lock-up torque converter systems - recommendatio I'm going to mount my switch under the dash and out of sight or inside the console. May not be an option for you. Could mount it under the steering column. I'm still considering the vacuum delay valve if I can find one that works like it should. The electrical delay should be good too and you can keep it out of sight.
With as much motor as you have I wonder if you need a vac switch. Was driving mine yesterday and watched the vac gauge. Locked up in OD could easily control trans with throttle. Your motor has more low speed torque than mine and I still accelerate just fine locked in OD. If needed a little more throttle trans drops into 3rd and moves smartly. A little more and the boost hits :laugh: At 50 mph and full throttle hit it goes to 2nd hits 5 psi and :Brow: The times I would like to be out of lockup is when over 50mph and backing off the throttle. Then the vac goes up and a switch would not unlock the clutch. Also see no need for a delay switch. Trans changes to OD and then the OD clutch engages. Why have a delay? You can feel both changes happen. Now the device to automatically unlock by speed would be useful. I just hit my unlock switch below 35. Switch is hidden in the console under the ash tray cover. Would not put a switch in the dash, too far away. Might hide one in the arm rest somehow. I really have no problem with a switch because the switch is so easy to use.
Need to rethink this choice (Re: lock-up torque converter systems) Dear Bill, Greg, Doug, and V-8 Buick tinkerers, Thanks for your thoughts. You have some interesting ideas. Hope you'all can understand my desire to also keep the car interior looking nice and as uncluttered as possible. This is an interesting idea that I hadn't considered. Yes, that's correct. For an engine like this, the vacuum mechanism isn't going to detect the conditions when the lock-up needs to be disengaged. This is also correct. This engine can cope with the additional load easily, so why make things more complicated. All this suggests that I've been looking at the wrong kit given the engine I have. I need to take a look at the B&M kit once more. Perhaps that is a better match for the drive-train I have. Yes, it is always possible to find a place to hide a switch. Still, hidden switches are clumsy in their own way and I'm already committed to a few inconspicuous controls. Sure would like to keep this sort of thing to a minimum. Alas, if you can't avoid it - you can't! Thanks for the help! :TU: Cheers, Edouard :beer
