i have a 69 RR code and this is what it looks like. 216 number meant the 216th 400 motor off the line. RD is the code for the 430 motor. some times on the line they get mixed up with codes and cars.there was no 455 in 1969 but the 400 430 and the 455 block looked the same. remember it was the sixties johnny
There are a bunch of 68-69 blocks that are overstamps from the factory. RD = 1969 430. RR is a 69 400. The block was initially stamped 'RD' for a 430..however, was used for either a GS 400 or a Sport Wagon and stamped RR. Johnny- you're reading that code number wrong.. It's 21 small B. Has to do with build date and application. It's a very, very close guarded 'secret' code... Does NOT have to do with its build sequence...:TU:
ok george on my protect-o-plate it says RR216 so i just thought 21b looks close to 216. again it was the sixties lol. paper work from the GM plant says engine number RR216 seen others with the same info on motor and p-o-p matching that same info ie RRO93 both cars made in Oshawa ontario Canada. thanks johnny
I think Johnny is right on this one. Buick used an I as a 1 and a b as a 6 and a 9 for engine and frame number stamps for a long time. The July 2013 issue of the Buick Bugle has an article that mentions this (pg. 13) and I've attached some pictures showing this. I've also attached some info from the 1969 chassis service manual. It says the numbers following the engine production code indicates the approximate build date and nothing about what application it is for because that is was the two letters at the beginning of the code indicate.
What I was trying to communicate was there looks to be an "added" stamp between the R's and one to the right of the second R. Those don't look factory to me.
Lots of things just look wrong in this thread stampings like I have never seen on any Buick that in my experience and MHO with many buicks are probably retstamps and wishful thinking on the part of some, rather factory markings -- in this picture the block has had non factory machining and has most likely been restamped -- the second R is not the right size for a factory - i doubt the lower case b being used as a 6 or 9 as stated later came from the factory - factory letter stampings were uppercase. the RD restamped to RR as mentioned doesn't make sense to me either - The first R is year (69) the second R (or D) is application and would not prestamped on the casting -it comes after machining - the 430 and 400 block casting may have been the same but the bore was different, so a block machined for a 430 and stamped RD could not then be re- machined and used as RR 400 which has a smaller bore. [TABLE="width: 90"] <tbody>[TR] [TD="colspan: 11"]400 Cubic Inch 4,040 Bore x 3.90 Stroke [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]400 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10.25 [/TD] [TD]MR [/TD] [TD]340@5000 [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]440@3200 [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]Dual [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]STD: GS 400 Skylark [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]400 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10.25 [/TD] [TD]PR [/TD] [TD]340@5000 [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]440@3200 [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]Dual [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]STD: GS 400 Skylark [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD="colspan: 4"] [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]400 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10.25 [/TD] [TD]RR [/TD] [TD]340@5000 [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]440@3200 [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]Dual [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"]STD: GS 400 Skylark [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="colspan: 6"]400 Cubic Inch (Stage 1) 4.040 x 3.90 Stroke [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"] [/TD] [TD="colspan: 2"] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="colspan: 11"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="colspan: 11"]Specific Content: Special camshaft with single machined identification groove, tubular push rods, H-D valve springs, higher oil pressure spring, 5/8" dia. oil suction pipe, specific carburetor and distributor, deep sump fuel pump and chrome rocker covers. [TABLE="width: 90"] <tbody>[TR] [TD]1969 [/TD] [TD]400 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10.25 [/TD] [TD]RS [/TD] [TD]350@4800 [/TD] [TD]440@3200 [/TD] [TD]Dual [/TD] [TD]OPT: GS 400 Skylark [/TD] [/TR] </tbody>[/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] </tbody>[/TABLE] [TABLE="width: 90"] <tbody>[TR] [TD="colspan: 4"]430 Cubic Inch 4,1875 Bore x 3.90 Stroke [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1967 [/TD] [TD]430 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10.25 [/TD] [TD]ND [/TD] [TD]360@5000 [/TD] [TD]475@3200 [/TD] [TD]Dual [/TD] [TD]STD: Wildcat, Electra, Riviera [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1968 [/TD] [TD]430 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10.25 [/TD] [TD]PD [/TD] [TD]360@5000 [/TD] [TD]475@3200 [/TD] [TD]Dual [/TD] [TD]STD: Wildcat, Electra, Riviera [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1969 [/TD] [TD]430 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10.25 [/TD] [TD]RD [/TD] [TD]360@5000 [/TD] [TD]475@3200 [/TD] [TD]Dual [/TD] [TD]STD: Wildcat, Electra, Riviera [/TD] [/TR] </tbody>[/TABLE] the guarded 'secret' code - is the engine build date - and should be 3 numbers 216, would be Aug 4th 1968 My Oshawa built 69 GS 400 was RR 236 - no D, no lower case letters used as numbers or I used as 1 - it was 20 days after Johnnies dont think they changed stamp styles in between. the "There are a bunch of 68-69 blocks that are overstamps from the factory. RD = 1969 430. RR is a 69 400. The block was initially stamped 'RD' for a 430..however, was used for either a GS 400 or a Sport Wagon and stamped RR." there would be a TSB for something like this - but I dont believe it happened - maybe 430 engines restamped to RR and put into GS 400 cars -- again there would be TSB. alomost makes sense until you think about it - decking would be have done before stamping - so wouldn't the rest of the machining be done too ?? Makes me thing a bunch 430's were put into larks to make GS's - just like Riviera 455's are used to make skylarks into GS 455's in the later years. and just to clear up the 455 RD code -- mentioned first letter is the model year R= 1969 S= 1970 T= 1971 etc [TABLE="width: 90"] <tbody>[TR] [TD="colspan: 4"]455 Cubic Inch 4.3125 Bore x 3.90 Stroke [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1970 [/TD] [TD]455 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10 [/TD] [TD]SR [/TD] [TD]350@4600 [/TD] [TD]510@2800 [/TD] [TD]Dual [/TD] [TD]STD: Gran Sport Skylark - GS 455 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]455 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]10 [/TD] [TD]SF [/TD] [TD]370@4600 [/TD] [TD]510@2800 [/TD] [TD]Dual [/TD] [TD]STD: Wildcat, Estate Wagon, Electra, Riviera [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1971 [/TD] [TD]455 [/TD] [TD]4Bbl [/TD] [TD]8.5 [/TD] [TD]TR [/TD] [TD]315@4400 [/TD] [TD]450@2800 [/TD] [TD]Dual [/TD] [TD]STD: Centurion, Estate Wagon, Electra, Riviera [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD]OPT: Gran Sport Skylark - GS455, LeSabre [/TD] [/TR] </tbody>[/TABLE]
If you provide me with a fax number I'll fax the page from my 74 Chiltons manual. According to Chiltons there was a 70 "RD" motor that was 225hp with single exhaust or 250hp with dual exhaust. The "SR" had 350hp and the "SF" had 370hp. Why would I make something like that up? It seems strange to me too!!
Rob- my basis for the 'over-stamp' suggestion is based on the AMOUNT of 68-69 GS's I have owned, inspected, parted, etc. I DOUBT that the amount of engines, transmissions, carbs, etc I have looked at have been restamps... Including original, low mileage cars, etc....despite what the book states..
George The overstamp just does not make sense to me due to the different bores , a 400 could be bored to a 430 - but the 430 bore was already larger than a 400 so a different head would also be needed to make 430 a 400. .I a Full Size Buick Guy I've only had a 69 400, and a 350 68 sporty, did the numbers on a friends 68 lark custom saw nothing like that. but if you seen more than couple - maybe something was happening - its does seem more plausabel to me that some GS 400's actually had overstamped 430's -- remembering that would be against GM corporate policy at the time , but if there were no 400's on the line, that may have been done to keep the line rolling (or maybe a smeaky way to get that done). either way there would TSB issued - I dont have 68/69 TSB's any more sent them off when I sold the GS. A GS 400 /430 engine with the an extra 20 hp and 35 more Ft ilbs would be good thing. Where what you seen from the same plant or built around same period or from same area (purhaps were a race builder may have done it) ?? anybody got TSB's or other documentation. - PS sorry for the multiple posts - it kept giving a 500 internal server error, last night so I tried few times looks like posted all of them extras deleted this morning. ---------- Post added at 08:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ---------- Sean I notice one of these pictures is a replacement 71 engine - wonder if those odd letters were used by dealers when they that - the service manuals do instruct that engine be stamped when factory replacement engine is installed. My 71 Riv has a factory replacement engine that was installed Jan 1972 - the engine code stamp is F 078 and no VIN stamp at all. Driveline Validation Engine Code Photos; The engine in this 71 Riviera was reported by the original owner to have been replaced under warranty, in early 1972 after throwing a connecting rod at around 8,000 miles. The production code only shows an F visible with a 078 date code, indicating 19[SUP]th[/SUP] March 71 No Engine VIN was found. When engines were replaced under warranty, technicians were instructed to stamp the VIN number into the replacement blocks, as is seen here, that did not always happen. Factory replacement engines have BXEXXXXX format stamp on front passenger side. B-Buick X model year ie 1-(1971) E- (Engine Plant) 12927-(Consecutive number of the replacement blocks) ---------- Post added at 09:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 AM ---------- another plausible expatiation for the RDR over stamp is that someone simply stamped the wrong code RD onto some 400 engines and the R was over stamped to correct that -- what does the block rear saddle casting show on these?
Johnny, I see nothing out of sorts in your attached photos. But for verification, look for the casting date on your block. Engine code (stamping) 216 is going to put your engine production in the late November-early December 1968 time frame, not August as suggested in another post. The casting date will likely be on a pad under the ignition coil, and will be a letter followed by one or two numbers. Something tells me you will find L ## or M # there. Buick did indeed use what looks like a lower case b to represent the numbers 9 and 6 on the engine production codes ca. 1968.
216 was 3rd of Aug 1968 Nov 68 started at 306 Three Number Model Year Date Coding Was used for engine production code, transmission production code, The model year for this code started Jan 1 of the previous year and continued thru 31 Dec of that model year. for example 1971 Build date code 333 is - Nov, 29 1970 (the 333th day of the 71 model year). 1971 Build date code 520 is – June, 4 1971 (520 -365 = 155th day of that model year). 72 was a leap year so you need to account for that in 72 and 73 calculations (-366 days for numbers above ) Here’s a calendar site that will help http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/custom.html?year=1968&country=1&cdt=31&doy=1&df=1 cast code will be letter (for the month) and digits for day, casting will of course be before engine bulid Casting Date Interpretation mdd or mddy where: m = month (A-L month format, see below) dd = 1- or 2-digit numeric day of month (1-31) y = last digit of calendar year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec A B C D E F G H I J K L
Rob, the 3 digit model year code as you outline was indeed used by GM's Turbo Hydra-Matic division, but was a different system than that used by Buick's Engine Group when production codes were stamped. Additionally, the letter "I" was not used by foundries as a month code, thus H=Aug, J=Sept, K=Oct, L=Nov, and M=Dec.The attached pictures show a 70 GS455 block from a car that I parted out many years ago. The production code in this example is 236 (with the lower case "b" used to represent the number 6). Were the Turbo Hydra-Matic date coding to be used, 236 would indicate a date of August 24, 1969. The fly in the ointment is revealed by the fact the block was cast on December 19, 1969. The production code could not have been stamped prior to the casting of the block.
agree on the I not used and dec being M (copied from wrong place) the 236 - looks more like 6 withe top not impressed than the b with the line across top seen in the other pictures . being that 1970 model car production would have started in Aug 69 engine would have been built months before starting in Feb/Mar 69 and the castings months before that would not the M = Dec 1968 - a Dec 69 casting would be to late fo 1970 late production when was the car assembled ? (my 71's original 455 engine was built 29 Nov 70 (from the protect o plate using TR 333 code) TR333 = Engine Production Code T = Engine Model Year 1971 R = Engine Code, Stnd Riviera, 315 hp, 445 cu inch V8 with 455 lb-ft torque @ 2800 rpm. 333 = 29 Nov 1970 Engine build date. - the car was assembled 6 June 71 (protect o plate and door compliance sticker), its has factory replacement engine built 18[SUP]th[/SUP] March 71 , a 72 model engine built before 71 car production installed in Jan 72.) ---------- Post added at 01:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ---------- Additionally why would certain Buick engines have "secret coding" that looks just like that the other GM divisions used, but means something different that it seems only few select People know about, but wont explain how it works "because with that info GS Stage1's and GSX's could be faked" While the full size Buick cars seem to be same as the other GMs. ---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ---------- what are the 4 H and 7 H stampings ? nothing in the books about those and a different than the others seem to be over stampings. note/compare the 6 in the engine VIN
