Discussion in 'Small Block Tech' started by stk3171, Nov 20, 2019.
was it deleted?
Good question. If the person who started the thread deletes his first post, it takes the whole thread with it. Maybe a mistake?
POOF! Looks like it's off the grid....maybe thread memory ran out?
It was deleted by the OP this afternoon.
Considering the direction the thread was heading, can't say I blame him.
That was an old thread too!
Seems to be the trend these days when too much truth is posted on the internet.
SBB Stroker Build thread I posted in got wiped out too. V8 must have a virus.
Those threads that the links don’t work anymore are simply outdated links and I need to update them. They aren’t deleted by myself or on purpose. Over the years lots of the links stopped working.
Yes I deleted that big thread because people were disrespecting TA and I want no part in it!
You guys can start your own TA bashing thread and I won’t participate.
I love this hobby and I won’t stop doing my best to make reliable 800+ hp with the Buick 350. The heads are something we needed to further the process! Even if we have to port and modify them that’s Hot Rodding.
Michael Jrs engine made 480 hp with a street cam, 10:1 and 355 cubes. Does anyone really believe that swapping back to stock non ported heads would result in over 380 hp??? With stock valves and no porting there is no chance if getting anywhere close to 480 hp.
now we have a nice light casting we can port easily and quickly. Now we aren’t stuck with thin casting iron heads that are prone to crank when ported. Now we aren’t wasting $1000-2500 on iron heads. That $ is better spent on alum castings for a solid foundation as a start.
Anyone with the nerve to bash the alum heads should do one of the following things:
1. build a 480+ Buick 350 with 355 cubes and iron heads using a mild street cam.
2. Buy the alum heads and enjoy
3. Shut up with the internet bashing and call TA and talk to Mike Sr about this.
Ta invested a ton of time and effort into these heads and we as a Buick community are disappointed in the childish behaviour bashing these heads before we have had a chance to fully utilize them!
In brute terms, this is like certain 350 guys receiving their cake, and then shitting on it. I myself would like a 350, cause why not, but I don’t like the attitude of the guys that have waited forever. I don’t have a strong place to talk from, since I’m new enough that I don’t matter, but this seems to be the wrong way of going about welcoming a new product.
My unsolicited opinion and worth every penny not paid for it.
Anyone that commissioned TA Performance or anyone else to build a product, or anyone that put a financial deposit towards a product to be made available, or anyone that put forth intellectual information on design, build testing, etc. of said product(s), or for the delivery of same, has a "dog in the fight".
Everyone else, including me, are simply "spectators" and without any interest, other that the desire to benefit from the aforementioned, should shut up and take a seat on the nearest park bench.
Or, to put it more bluntly... If you are not in it, stay out of it.
Otherwise, do your own design, testing, "partnering" with foundries, machinists, engineers, and other people to bring a product to the finished stage.
TA Performance, nor anyone else owes no one anything beyond what is bought and paid for, or in the current shipping catalog.
And we wonder why more folks do not "contribute" to the "scene".
My hope it, that in spite of the hostile ground, folks try to cultivate new and better things, people endeavor to persevere, to keep things ever moving and momentum and investment of those who have given so much for the love of the scene and the many who have gone before us, that it is not all in vain.
Everything in my post is my opinion, nothing more, and speaking for no one by myself.
If the shoe fits...
(otherwise, this was not meant for you)
Anyone can jump up on their soap box and be as pretentious as they want, but it isn't going to change the fact that TA didn't even live up to their own standard with the sbb 350 heads!
Even their entry level BBB 455 heads flow better out of the box than the majority of the level 3 ported cast iron heads out there which is the standard they set for themselves and the sbb 350 heads fall short of their own standard.
Level 3 for the sbb 350 factory head would be in the 260 CFM range, which aluminum heads would make more power even at the same compression ratio as factory unported heads at that level. With the way they are now if installed at the same compression ratio they will make around the same power as the cast iron heads that came off and only slightly more if they are the 1:1 higher C/R they need to be to make up for the heat loss in the chamber.
So sorry people got but hurt for pointing this short coming out, don't shoot the messenger. And no one should be a sycophant for anyone or any company either for that matter.
Here's the deal, the sbb 350 heads more than likely had one shot to get them right because lets face it they would rather everyone swap a 455 in their car so they can sell us those parts. If someone could buy a 60 HP and 60 ft lb gain by just swapping a set of heads on their sbb 350, a lot of people might stick with their sbb 350 and they would sell less 455 parts?
I'm not asking for more than what the 455 guys have available but the same standard would be nice.
Oh, and "hot rodding" is porting factory heads and getting the most out of what is available for the least amount of $$, not spending almost $3,000 on aftermarket heads and then have to spend another $2K to make their shiny new aluminum heads perform better than the factory ones that came off. Throwing $$ at it is for the high end race car guys NOT the "hot rodders".
Don't get me wrong, if someone was planning on getting these ported anyway they do have potential but not so much for the out of the box and bolt them on crowd. Would be a whole lot of work and $$$ for minimal or zero gain for the out of the box crowd, just an FYI for everyone.
If anyone thinks pointing out the short comings of these heads is "bashing" TA, you might be a sycophant.
I've had my issues with TA, but overall I'm glad they exist and they actually gave a **** to make the heads. I will own a set soon enough. I want 400+hp. 10.5:1, headers, dual plane, 600 lift cam should get me there with those heads. Can't wait.
For about $2,300 less spent on heads you can get that kind of power with your iron heads, even less if you do the work yourself!
Plus with lifts over .500" or .550" you will need roller rockers. Also if you want a .600" lift flat tappet cam the duration @ .050" will get into the very marginal for the street range that will require a high stal and numerically higher rear gears.
Seems like a whole of expense for just around 400 HP! Spend the cash on the roller rockers and a roller cam and some iron head porting and you can get to a streetable over 400 HP with the right combo for WAY less $$.
Nothing says I can't take the AL heads and port them later on and get a bigger cam with rockers later as well.
What a joke, When the thread is not liked we just delete it. might as well wipe out the rest so it can be reset.
Sounds like politics let us hear what we need to hear and not ALL views.
Hmm, seems like for $2300 we should go buy ourselves 2 pairs of SBC heads and maybe have money left over for an intake.
Is this the price of keeping it Buick? I would liked to have seen 240 cfm, but the 350 head is already restrictive, so any jump on cfm is good.
The 350 in my (yet to be driven, going in for floorpans in early January) Skylark convertible put together by Tri-shield Performance with the Greg Gessler ported iron heads(248 @ 0.500) I bought off the board topped out at 400 hp. 355 cubic inches, high 9's CR with a hydraulic roller cam. 380 with stock iron heads in my opinion is clearly out of the question.
If I needed another set of 350 heads I would go with the aluminum heads from TA. But I have my heart set on a Stage 1 coupe.
P.S. the engine runs great, just have been waiting to get the floorpan work done for 8-9 months now.
Yep, that is the price for owning a Buick and keeping it all Buick. It is what it is, my skylark would have been on the road so long ago if i had just opened up my summit catalog, closed my eyes, and dropped my finger. Yet I wanted to keep my skylark all Buick.
Ya it is a shame we lost so much by having the thread deleted.
Is that what TA stated when they embarked on creating the 350 head? I don't remember seeing that they were shooting for that goal. I've followed the 350 threads and still have a 355 bare block sitting in my garage. I got a good deal on a 455 so I am currently going down that path. HOWEVER, in the future there is a high likelihood that I will build that 355 SBB for something.
I disagree with this post. If you had a bone stock '71 455 and just dropped aluminum heads on I would bet you would not get any gains. The short block would need work to see gains with the new heads. The potential is there, but wouldn't be realized without work. It would be ludicrous to think that dropping that kind of money on just heads would do anything. Its only a piece of the puzzle.
Seeing as their 455 product is vast and already a massive investment, I am sure they would be happy only having to invest time and money in what they already have. Starting from scratch for a much smaller market isn't a smart business practice. TA doesn't have to support the 350 market at all. They could likely improve their bottom line if they didn't bother developing anything for the 350. Yet, they went ahead and did.
Hot rodding has always been about fixing up junk and making it go fast. Based on this quote, unless you are a racer, that better be a completely iron engine, no headers, no alum intake, only a Q-jet, and maybe a cam. Which I think is a silly reality.
I think you have made it clear that you don't like the heads, cool, don't buy them. Joys of a free market. However, I think your a little more pissed that TA didn't meet YOUR standards. They more than likely sunk a ton of money into this project, had to make adjustments along the way, and had to put out a product that would be a reasonable price and work with what's out there. Looking at their product thread the budget bowl blend is only $200 more and nets a gain at .550" of 10cfm intake and 24cfm exhaust. Compared to stock numbers, I feel that is pretty significant gain.
Here is how I see it in my head. Some people can port heads, some can't. Some have the room to do that work, some don't. Some people can afford to buy multiple sets of irons to "practice" their porting, some can't. Some will have to send their heads out to have them professionally done, some won't. Some of those professionals might not be familiar with Buick, so that is a risk. There could be shipping costs involved if you have to send them out. Then there is the full rebuild of the heads, some can do it, some can't.
Its so easy to just say, oh you can get a level XYZ port job and flow better than aluminum heads for less. Well ya, if you are the one porting or live near to them. Otherwise there are many other variables that come into play.
Lets us me as an example. I have two sets of iron 350 heads, '71 casts, complete. So I could take the less usable set of heads and practice my porting, hopefully get good enough to make them flow better. Then hope I don't screw up on the final set. Or I hunt and hunt for a machine shop that is competent that can port these heads for a decent price (did you see my thread on finding someone to restore my heater core?!? Nightmare!!!). Likely that would mean driving quite a distance (3-4 hours), or I pay a fortune and have them shipped to one of the known Buick machinists. OR I spend $3K on aluminum heads that save me 50lbs total, have them shipped (or drive 6 hours to pick up) ready to drop on, and know that I can send them out for a level 1 port job in the future without any worry of being at the ragged limit of the heads, like on the irons.
I'm not trying to be a stooge for TA. I don't always buy my parts form them. Yet look how many manufacturers of aftermarket parts are out there for Buick. Look how much decline there has been in the last 10 years in the classic car market. Do you think any other manufacturer would embark on starting to create some stuff for the Buick 350? When was the last time Edelbrock updated their 455 head? Anyone else looking to offer us a head for that engine?