Re: and ......... Doubt it. I've been told that very few hours are invested by "high price" american workersper car. the rest is done by machinery any way. the money is going else were (greedy :moonu: )
AMEN Renee. The only thing that I can add is;- A dog does not bite the hand that feeds it. Why should the consumer? Harold Rolls.:TU:
The Foreigners are doing it again! The wife and I went to look at "NEW" cars last October for the first time in 20 years. She decided it was time to replace the 63K mile 98 Caddy STS she bought when it was one year old. She had not purchased a NEW vehicle since 1980. The Caddy was a nice car that had A LOT of repairs under warranty including a new Northstar engine at 49K miles. The original engine used LOTS of oil. With the bumper to bumper warranty to run out at the end of January, she had lost all confidence in the car. All I can say is "WOW"! What a difference between high end American cars and high end Japanese/European. The Americans are not anywhere near close to the Japanese/European cars in any area. Fit, finish, engineering, ride, comfort, interior design, options, ride, lack of road noise, etc. The Americans do have a good roadside service. No wonder, you will need it! Myself as an old American car guy could NOT believe the difference. It is sad, sad situation for the American manufacturers. She purchased European. Not one American vehicle was even in final consideration after 4 solid weeks of looking and driving many vehicles including many American models. Style and performance in some American models cannot make up for inferior design, assembly quality and fit/finish. Amercian car sales must be doing well. It was announced today GM is stopping production of the UAW assembled Saturn L in New Jersey. Nissan and Toyota have just announced expansion's at there production facilities in the United States. It was announced this morning that NISSAN sales are up 46% in the 2004 model year. Apparently "we" are not the only consumers who have made the above stated observations.
I just read in some auto rag that that GM has one person working in the company for every 2.5 on their pension plan, and that most of their 2 billion a year medical coverage goes to people who no longer work for the company. Hope they enjoy it....none of us will ever see that. I'm sure that doesn't help the problem. Even scarier, the forecast for the economy (Canada, anyway) is that by the time I retire in 2028(age 60! Oh my god!) there will be ...yup.....2 people working for every retired person...as ooposed to 8 or 9 right now.....:eek2: :eek2: Its not goona work........... later Tim
this is a tough topic. where I work (worlds largest air cooled 4 stroke engine manufacturer) the main plant in milwaukee is no longer a manufacturing plant like it used to be. it was too tied into union labor and labor was over priced. the company built a plant in mexico but closed it since it couldn't keep our quality requirements. but we still moved labor south. We now have plants in Auburn AL, Rolla MO, Statesboro MO, and a couple of other plants all that are non union. if you go to any of these plants you will see younger workers. many who drive nice vehicles (I wasn't able to see there homes) now if i go back 2 yrs when we did manufacture a big more in milwaukee, we had many people just shy of retirement age. these people had to be making a lot of money for the work. We are building a plant to build engines for china in china. so we can get more competitive market share over there. in doing so we've had some trouble finding suppliers who can keep up our standards. and those that do we will find a large increase in profitability. (there is a $.30 cent change in one engine family per engine using a same or better quality piston vs a local or in house made supply.) when we make one-million engines in this model line it has a tendency to add up. we will be really screwed when the suppliers figure out that hey.. we can jack the prices since they can't make these parts anymore and we'll loose our competitive edge. what is also scary is that a competitor to us from america is building a plant big enough to send all of their equipment and different lines they sell over to china. we are loosing our edge as a manufacturing country. we're teaching techniques that gave us this edge to asian companies. it's difficult to say what is going to happen in the next 10 yrs. Nate
I'm not sure that buying American really helps anymore... The BIG 3 have merged with other companies and it really has become a global business. So even if you decide to buy a Subaru, you're supporting GM. If you buy a Mazda, you're supporting Ford. If you buy a Mercedes, you're supporting Chrysler. At least indirectly. The Big 3 are becoming global companies because they FINALLY realized that they've built crap-tastic cars over the last 25 years. I'm not sure if it will benefit the US economy in the long run, but I think it will benefit the quality of American cars in the long run. If Ford can learn a bit about fit and finish from Jaguar, that's probably a good thing. And if GM can learn luxury by purchasing Saab, then go for it. But I still don't see results... We looked at a few American cars last year but ended up going with a VW Passat. The difference in build quality, luxury and comfort between the VW and the American cars is astounding. I just hope the Big 3 are reading threads like this and are acting QUICK. The only American car that I'll buy will be built before 1975.
I understand not to bite the hand that feeds you, but if you're milking it for all it's worth for years and years, how can you expect a company to stay the same? The competition globally is forcing changes in the way we do things. Unions breed laziness. There is no way a company can stay competitive and pay someone $50K a year to do unskilled labor. Why should they be expected to? It's ridiculous! The American way is to work hard to get what you have. Unions go completely against that thinking. I have a friend that works for Chrysler here in Ohio, who tells me that most the time the guys meet their quota for the night, and end up sleeping half the night in the break room! What kind of incentive is there to do better and be competitive when people are being payed to sleep? These people will wake up real quick when they find they are without jobs because it is too inefficient and unprofitable to build a car here in the US. Of course, if you are the one working in a union shop and have it easy, it seems like a good deal to you. The problem is that this mindset is going to drive our manufacturing right out of the country, and then we are all screwed! That, and the fact that companies are trying to make a bigger margin. It all comes down to greed, whether by people making easy money, or companies trying to make more and more who couldn't care less about their employees and our country. This might have worked for the last however many years, but there is just too much competition overseas. We can't expect to be part of the global economy and not have to compete globally. It will never be that way again.
In 1970 through 1972 I worked at an industrial ceramics factory that made vessels for the steel industry and sifting parts for asphalt. I cast the ceramics in molds, fired them in a kiln that was at super hot range. I forget the temperatures. But when we were in a hurry we put on asbestos suits and went in there to bring out the products. I went to the emergency room several times, because when something touched your skin it disappeared instantly these ceramic objects were red hot. Not to mention we were wearing ASBESTOS SUITS AND GLOVES. When we blew ourselves off with air hoses to get off the dust and ashes the asbestos threads were flying around in the air as plain as day. Sometimes the kiln ceiling caved in while we were in there when it was too hot because at that high temperature the bricks were unstable. One bump and it came down. The bricks were red hot too. Of course we had asbestos hoods on with glass ports to see out of but it put lumps on you head anyway. Do I miss a manufacturing job? Guess? I don't miss the good old days at all. Get educated and get a creative job, that's my advice. One little PS: My experience with unions. Way back in 1979 I interviewed to be a financial auditor for the Teamsters with their Chief Auditor. Biggest ornate office I ever saw for a guy with his responsibilities. The question that stuck in my mind was whether I'd have a problem testifying in court. I thought, why would I need to testify and if I did, why would he already be asking that. I feared for my life if I testified wrong. Didn't take the job.
.....plus, if you buy Chrysler, you are supporting Daimler. ou: Don't forget who owns whom. Isn't Daimler the captain in that marriage?? o No:
Good point... I guess it makes you realize that even if you buy from the Big 3 you are still supporting the economy's elsewhere!
Really interesting discussion about the unions. I don't know where I stand on this one. If you look back through history, you can see the importance of unions to keep big companies from screwing the common man. Just rent the movie Norma Rae and you'll get a pretty good picture of what I'm talking about. But it does seem like they've gotten WAY too much control??
<<<<<<<<<<PRO UNIONS>>>>>>>>>> Well Carl, you said that some may not like it. I first joined the UAW in september of 1952. I worked for GM for 1 1/2 years. I again joined the UAW in 1962 when I returned to GM. I went with the CAW when it was formed back in the 1980s. I was elected by my peers for 5 terms in a row, between 1977 and 1987, to represent them on the shop floor. I have seen trade unions make a big difference in the standard of living for the whole country. Here in Canada in the late 50s and early 60s the only people who had a pension plan were trade union people. Starting with january 1965 the federal government implimented the Canada Pension Plan. It is funded by the employee, and the employer. It is for all residents of Canada. Self employed people can pay into it as can farmers. Anyone, who in a Canadian citizen can do this. This is not only a pension plan, but has a death payout also to help with those expenses. FOR ALL.:TU: In this time frame, or a little later, it was recognised that the only ones who had health benifits were again trade union people. Where I live a plan called OHIP (ontario health insurance plan) exisits. Again this is available to all, because of unions. It has made a better quality of life for all, without paying any dues. I do not see anything wrong with paying $50,000 to unskilled people. In the Oshawa you have to have a grade 12 education to even get a job putting on wheels. A grade 12 education makes a person very skilled in my opinion. I do resent seeing the COE of GM make 7 or 8 million with a bunch of stock options thrown in, as well as all expenses. I left GM in 1997. I left a couple of weeks before my may 1st retirement date. I was ab Bristol, and then went over to Bowling Green, and was there for my first official day of retirement. I got called into a lunch area on my last day of work. It was packed. My son and daughter who both work in the plant, along with fellow workers and management went all out. I was given a card with over 200 signatures on it, and over $500 in it, cake, you name it. One of the few times in my life that I was at a loss for words.:TU: There are many things that unions are responsibe for, that they never get credit for, and a lot of things they get blamed for that they are no ways responsible for. In solidarity...............Harold Rolls.
If any of you guys are interested and have time to read a pretty informative book then I would recommend you read: The Lexus and The Olive Tree Thomas L. Freidman I am part way through it--this guy has spent most of his career traveling the world--he writes for the NY Times. Basically it is his view of what is going on with the world and globalization--a point he continues to make throughout the book (so far) is that most of the rest of the world was operating under a system that was light years behind ours in terms of freedom, quality of life, etc. The combination of deregulation of financial markets and capital flows and the democratization of information (ie via the Internet, etc) has put forces in place that are pretty much unstoppable. What I take from this book so far is that people in these other countries WANT WHAT WE HAVE!---because they can now find out what we have (what quality of life, types of governance, mobility, property rights {probably the most important} and a legitimate legal system to enforce them). The governments are screwed if they do not allow this in the long term so a lot of it is out of their hands. For you guys that were adults back in the 70's or so pay particular attention to the changes that have taken place since then in terms of financial markets and their "democratization"--it is simply amazing how little you could do back in the 70's and 80's compared to now---these changes are what allowed most of the globalization to even occur! I highly recommend it as it will help you put all this rapid change in perspective----found it at the local library branch---go check it out and report back with your thoughts! Book reports due from everyone on this thread in three weeks!:Brow: Patton
Have to disagree with that statement. Unions don't make people lazy.......some people are just born that way. :error:
i am surprised so many people seem unhappy with their GM vehicles. in my extended family we have many GM cars and trucks and if one ever were to break down, the first thing we would have to do is get over the shock of something that has never happened to us before. ours get lots of miles, and far less than the recommended services, they just keep on going, we've had four cylinders, straight six, v 6, v8 they just go & go. i drive an 02 GM , and i love it, no complaints here. i am glad that my money goes to families in places like IN. IL. MI. OH. WI. etc. i would rather spend $ 10.00 here than to spend $5.00 in tokyo. henry
The blame for the way things are going in this country does not rest totally on the unions shoulders. Things like workmans comp, the insane cost of health insurance and out of control lawsuits are the biggest problem. It used to be that a business paid out $.30 for every dollar made for things like workmans comp, benefits and insurance. In my industry it is now about $1.10 for every dollar. In another words we are paying out over 1/2 of our income just for insurance. That does not include payroll, materials, overhead or taxes. The companys accountant and I were taking a smoke break the other day and she was telling me how the company grossed 2.5 million last year. After everything, the owners only made about $35k in profit. Something is very very wrong with that if you ask me. Seems to me that American manufacturing, small business and the middle class will be gone in the next 20-30 yrs. There will be mega corporations (wal mart, HD etc) with their mansion dwelling, disconnected owners. The rest of us will work for their corporations and service their palatial estates for peanuts. Lets see how accomidating mexico is when Americans start sneaking across the boarder looking for jobs and a place to live that they can actually afford. My dos centavos
yea.. my parents current 98 riv 120k has had no probems though the exterior door handle broke. there 99 S10 40k had a very minor problem early on. my sis's (former parents, 94 lesabre (170k had very few problems (alt, starter, power steering cooler)) just before the lesabre was a 87 honda (simmilar small problems like any other, clutch, alt. front CV joint (till it hit 170k miles and a bunch of $$$ stuff broke.) my dad's company 92 3/4 ton chevy van went thru 2 or 3 tranies though he beats on that thru mud and ruts (busted 2 rocking it) . and an EGR valve. his ford van now and just before had very few problems.. though the first one had a vinyl drivers seat and a cloth pass. seat (figure that one out) he was cool with it though so when the AC finally quits he can switch the worn out vinyl seat to a cloth one. nate
