From my opinion numbers matching adds value I agree I get that some collectors it’s important but nothing I care about if the price is right when buying and I enjoy driving Nothing I currently own I admit I have looked at blocks to see what they are some I have been decked so no numbers I’m to old to care about much more than the fun factor of driving
The category I refer to as "near matching numbers" It's not even unique to Chevy, once in a blue moon we see someone selling an SS block as if it means much other than to the car it originally came from.
Now it’s “ numbers matching “ in a publication . https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...rs-matching-gem-with-a-coddled-v8-236348.html
Yes It is known without question that the carburetor, distributor, and transmission are either restamped, not original to the car, or have reproduction tags. I also feel that I can prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the engine block has been restamped.
In the Corvette world (and I am sure this applies to many other makes) there is a distinction between numbers matching, which includes restamps, and "born with" drive train, which is exclusive to the components installed in the car when it left the factory.
I followed that auction... lots of unanswered question and I didn't see any backup for the drag racing/set aside engine story, and for $160,000 those details are important. I'd like to know what I am missing regarding the potential restampings.
The wrong date distributor de bunks the story of the original power train being pulled and stored when new , to race . Sounds like another “ black ghost “ story . The most likely sinario is the power train was grenaded racing . Which , would be fine til the deception began . ASSuming the car is on the up and up IE no re body ect then it’s still a rare GSX , with value . Greed in the car hobby isn’t good for any of us .
I see a few atypical characteristics in the stamps that make me question their originality, and I see a couple of specific issues with the block and transmission stamps that in my mind confirm that they are restamps. 1. The block does not appear to have typical machining marks. Since the deck surface is painted the marks could be hidden, but on most factory blocks I have seen, the machine marks have been deep enough to be visible through the paint. 2. The "SS" stamp doesn't look typical to me. "SS" stamps are generally all over the place, so I could be wrong about that. It would have been helpful if the seller had provided a clear photo that included the entire block surface, but he instead provided a very poor quality and very tightly cropped image, both of which are red flags to me. 3. The font on some of the VIN stamp characters look suspicious to me, particularly on the 2 and 9 characters. Many different dies were used at the factory, so it is possible that these are original. However, these dies look different than the typical fonts I have seen on Buicks. 4. The spacing between the VIN characters looks wider than typical to me. This spacing leads to a very specific issue which I believe conclusively confirms this block as a restamp. The last couple of discrepancies require an understanding of the factory manufacturing process: Engines and transmissions were built in batches at their respective assembly plants and then the batches were sent to the vehicle assembly plant and stored in inventory until they were pulled for use on the assembly line. While at the engine assembly plant the engine "SS" code, date code, and shift code were stamped onto the block before the heads were installed. That is why you see those stamps all over the place and often obscured by the heads once they were installed. At the vehicle assembly plant batches of fully assembled Stage 1 engines would be sitting in inventory waiting to be selected at random for mating to a Stage 1 transmission and then installed in a chassis as it traveled down the assembly line. At the time these two fully assembled drive train components were mated together the VIN number was then stamped onto both the engine block and the transmission case at the same time, by the same worker, using the exact same stamp on both assemblies. He would set the proper characters in his gang holder, lock them in place, press it against the engine block and pound it with his hammer. He would then step to the transmission, place that same die against the case, and give it a pound with his hammer. Both being done within a few seconds of one another. With that information in mind, there are characteristics of these stamps which I believe precludes them from being original stamps. 1. The VIN stamp on this engine includes two "O" characters. One of those characters used is a zero, while the other character used is the letter "O". If you compare the engine stamp and the transmission stamp, it seems that the same exact die characters were used on both stamps as one would expect. However, if you look very closely, you will see that the "O" characters are reversed in order between the engine and the transmission. My question is, why on Earth would the assembly line worker assemble his stamp, stamp the VIN on the engine, then disassemble his stamp, rearrange the order of two Os in that stamp, and then stamp the transmission? Since the individual characters on both stamps appear to be identical, it seems safe to assume both were done with the same stamp and gang holder. Meaning they were either both done at the same time on the assembly line in 1970 (under the circumstances I described above), or they were both done by the same person using the same stamp set (though the individual dies obviously were not placed in the same order), some years later. 2. One additional characteristic I see that leads me to believe the block is a restamp is the spacing and location of the VIN characters. This involves two characteristics mentioned above, 1. The engine was fully assembled when the VIN was stamped on the block, 2. The individual dies were held in a gang holder. After the last die character, the frame of that gang holder took up a fair amount of space. If you look at the VIN stamp on this block, you will see that the final character bumps up very close to the cylinder head. I have never seen a VIN stamp located that close to the cylinder head on a Buick, and I don't believe the gang holder would allow the stamp to be placed in that location while the head was bolted in place on the block. In conclusion, while none of this evidence 100% guarantees that this engine and transmission have been restamped, in my mind a preponderance of the evidence (especially considering all of the other known restamped and non-original components) confirms that this drive train has been restamped at some point after the car was manufactured.
Oh my. Thank you very much for this. Some I knew, some definitely new to me. I did notice the crappy digital photos of the old film/print snapshots and shook my head thinking this is the best they could do? I’ve been watching a bunch of different makes on BaT for some time, and curb appeal is definitely a factor more times than not, and this one may be the best example yet. Thanks again, I appreciate the detailed reply!
lsms, i appreciate your detailed explanation of the stamps procedure. makes spotting restamps easier and helps uneducated buyers when looking at buicks! charlie
In my World, it only takes 1-2 red flags to convince me, not 4-5 like on this car. Good information on the factory process, I get so tired of guys trying their darndest to justify BS when it comes to stampings.
I had fully intended to bid on this car when it was first listed on BaT, as it checked all the right boxes, but there were too many issues, some minor, some major that caused me to hesitate in submitting a bid. Then once the talk of restamps was raised, I felt that there were just too many red flags to bid confidently. This car would be an excellent candidate for the average person, but for a purist such as myself, this was not the droid I was looking for.
I think some big $ buyers just don't care about these details that we here do care about. Yes, a number matching car is more valuable. But for a buyer with the money it's more about the car's appearance and its story.
There are some stupid (literally & figuratively) rich ppl out there. Maybe you get to a point where it doesn't matter. Idk & never will.
LOL. I am too cheap to even consider any of these cars. Only my wife get a "late model". Still used... Just because I can afford it, doesn't mean I am mentally prepared to spend. Of course, I am pouring money into my old rusty worthless 350 GS California car. I'm fine with that.
