Yep, that's my real pics. And, I have no receipts after 32 years with the car, and it's lived in 10 different locations. I also stripped it down to metal 24 years ago. Don't have those pics on file either, being 24 years ago and I don't own a computer. But it happened,....
Guess you'll need a trusting buyer when the time comes, huh... I have 3 folders of receipts and a logbook and I bought the car on 03-31-22. Prior owner had all receipts of parts installed, receipts for labor, machining that was done, dyno results, etc. Just got it back from getting 2 months of what I call preventative maintenance (others call it restoration). New updated fuel lines, mechanical/liquid cooling adjustments, new ignition from scratch, new engine bay wiring, hand made battery cables, grounds, fusible links, vacuum adjustments for new distributor, rebuilt alternator, rebuilt mini torque starter, F-41 suspension addition (and other suspension snubs/stiffs/tweaks), options galore like rally pack, in dash tach, Stage 2 badges, etc. Waiting on new steering wheel, tilt wheel column and rear window parts. Hopefully it will go back in the shop for those in a month or two. Also need 4 racing belt harnesses, but that's a different story. Just in time for the nice weather so I can pick up my 12 year old from school in convertible style. Is that you and your girlfriend in your Mustang?
How should a seller prove that the engine was never changed? The only way that would be possible is if, on the day the father purchased his brand new car in 1970, he took photos of the VIN stamp knowing that 54 years later his heirs would need that photographic proof when they decided to sell the car. The seller stated that the engine rebuild was not done by Kleiner at the time of the restoration but was instead done by Fred Catlin at some point prior to the restoration. Since all of the parties directly involved (Catlin, Kleiner, and the seller's father) have now passed, there is no one available to verify what truly happened with the engine.
Documentation. Yes, photographic proof is good to have. Every time it's worked on, document what happened, keep actual parts/labor receipts and get the mechanic/machinist to document what they did, especially anything out of the ordinary. If the machinist drilled out the oil ports in your 1970 455, then document it. If you bored the cylinder(s), document it. Rebuild instead of replace major parts, great way to keep original stamps. Even document oil changes, state inspections, tire changes, window replacements, car shows, etc. Obviously, 50 year old cars need replacement parts (PM) at some point; especially wiring, grounds, fusible links, rubber everything, bulbs (with water dispersal lubricant), sending units, replace coolant, fluids, belts, etc. Keep an orderly logbook to show that regular PM was done correctly. Again, if it were DOCUMENTED, the seller would have all the proof he would need...
Thank you for that bit of information to help educate me. Can you help me further? Was each new shift numbered sequentially (i.e. if shift number 290 was the last shift on February 28, 1970 then the first shift on March 1, 1970 would have been shift number 291)? Regarding the coincidence of having the same shift number on two Stage 1 engines, I would guess that they built engines in batches, so there were likely several Stage 1 engines built during shift number 290. Then every Stage 1 car assembled over the next several weeks received a shift number 290 engine until that supply was exhausted. I agree that it is entirely possible that there was an issue at the engine plant and an improvised stamp set might have been needed. However, a big factor to take into consideration when discussing the block in this car (or any other block in question) is that the engine stamp was done at the engine plant when the engine was assembled while the VIN stamp was added some weeks later at the vehicle assembly plant once the engine had been designated for a specific chassis. Therefore, the likelihood that each of those stamps required a non-standard stamping process would be much lower.
I have to ask, were you using photographic documentation practices in 1970 for brand new vehicle purchases? If Fred Catlin had used photographic documentation practices when rebuilding the engine in question that would not have satisfied your requirement for proof. Those photographs would have proved that as of approximately 1988 that particular engine was being rebuilt, but it would have offered no proof what-so-ever that the engine had not been replaced and restamped at some point between 1970 and 1988.
This isn't difficult. I have photos of my car, for me. I have photos of my car, inside, outside, under the hood, the undercarriage, etc., for documentation, for insurance, etc. If I wreck my car, I take photos - now I have before and after. I have a detailed parts/labor list and the shop that did the work. After the work is done, I have photos - before and after of body and paint (making sense). Same thing for mechanical, electrical, etc. If I do machine work (or something that alters my car in some way), I take before and after photos. When major parts come off, photos are taken of distinguishable markings for documentation. It's not rocket science. Now, I wouldn't do this so painstakingly with our Traverse High Country, but I do keep accurate documentation of it as well; repairs, PM, inspections, etc. Again, this isn't difficult. Simple documentation goes a long way. Like I mentioned, keep a logbook. Make personal notes and keep receipts of everything; if no repairs were performed, then no repairs would be logged. Though, log all the small stuff too, to show the car was being taken care of. Logging mileage is critical too. Quite a bit happened between 1970 and 1988 to the car. Maybe not major, but oil was changed, tires were rotated, replaced, break pads/shoes were replaced (maybe a caliper was replaced) - document it. I would rather sift through 10 years of PM in 10 minutes than see NOTHING.
You are correct - it isn't difficult. It's impossible to prove a negative. We can all speculate as to the correct date codes / stamp fonts / stamp depths ad nauseam, but ultimately it's only speculation - in some cases, very well experienced and knowledgeable speculation, but we don't know for sure. If you think the car above didn't get regular oil changes because there aren't two receipts a year for 54 years, well... I can appreciate a high standard of documentation - and a hesitancy to spend your own money on something that doesn't measure up to your own expectations - but that doesn't mean cars are "fakes," or should be publicly derided. This is the internet, and you do you, but when you start questioning people's integrity with an online auction you have nothing to do with, it crosses a line.
$80K DEMANDS a high standard of documentation! I would absolutely question the seller's integrity if I were interested in the car! I'm not the only one who has easily spotted fakes at BaT (or Mecum and the other showboat auction houses, as well as every other "classic car" dealer from coast to coast). Notice, I didn't chime in on this pretty red one at BaT. Not even when the story became so laughable when it was mom's grocery runner for a few years and for the rest of its life after it was gently driven. Even though, it was fitted with a police spotlight and radio! Think it wasn't redlined a few hundred times? Would I need documentation of that? It was also wrecked, wasn't it? Is the frame straight? Did anyone ask? Though I have many times before and I don't care what anyone thinks - when I can easily see a fraudulent pic, statement, document, etc., I'll gladly share that info with the crowd. Sure, it pisses off BaT, they will usually delete my comments and the auction shills will come out of the woodwork and do their thing; get the auction back on track.
Nope and I knew that when I bought it, jack! I had been looking for a GS convertible for about two years. Went through over 40 would be candidates before I just missed its auction, but luckily the reserve hadn't been met and the owner was taking direct offers at that point. I was third in line and figured I never had a shot at it. But he called a few weeks later and gave me every piece of info you could ask for, documentation, dyno results, good pics, quality videos and plenty of conversations with him. There was 5 feet of snow on the ground, it was getting worse and I had been turned down by every mechanic in his town to go out and look at it for me. I bought it sight unseen and had it delivered. When they started it up and pulled it out of the trailer in the middle of our quiet, suburban court, our neighbors all came out to see the "fire" that had just been rediscovered. Folks were slowly walking toward it, arms out stretched, wondering, what was this amazing gift of the gods. Originally, it was a GS350 convertible. But the owner prior to me decided to make changes around 2011; he wanted a track car so he had his friend, Bill Trovato at BTR Performance ( http://btrperformance.com - still in business) professionally build a 455 with 500 hp and 600 lb ft. They did a laundry list of other things to the car that complemented the drivetrain. It's 95% rust free and is just in outstanding shape. It has never been restored or repainted. I just love my GS and how it just shakes us to death while idling through the neighborhood. My HOA has been thinking of ways to force me to get rid of it...
Have I got a DEAL for you Then. -Original family owned -Documented -55,000 miles -Factory RED -Original paint ( not crashed and re body'ed) honest description Engine replaced ( not a fraud re-stamp) by the ORIGINAL SELLING DEALERSHIP still in Business! - sales price discounted https://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/71-gs-stage-1-unrestored-55k-miles-red-black.391258/ and not ONE of you have stepped up, money talks, bu****** walks.
