Engine Freshen/Build-up Questions- Looking for Input

Hi All-

Im looking for any and all opinions on an engine build I plan to do this winter. Its a numbers match block that I have the following goals with:

Longevity,
I want this engine to last a good long time, as in, with the few thousand miles per year I will be putting on the car, basically forever. All parts must be top quality and not stretching the limits. If my performance goals are too lofty and I risk hurting the motor, then Id rather tone it down a notch.

Power,
Im looking to go better than stock, but not crazy. Im hoping for around 450 HP, but would be satisfied with something over 400. Lots of low-end grunt would be great as thats where Ill probably be having most of my fun. As with almost everyone here, I do like to stretch the cars legs once in a while!

Street Manners,
This car will see limited, if any, track time. A nice lope at idle is fine, rattling grandmas dentures out is not. I want plenty of vacuum to run brakes, etc.

Stock Appearing,
I plan to make this motor as correct looking as possible. That means no aftermarket heads, intakes, etc. I also plan to run stock exhaust manifolds, ported if the $$$ are there for this, but not at the top of my list if Im running out of funds.

As far as background on the car, its basically almost entirely stock. Its a four speed car with 3.42:1 gears in the rear. It does have a converted ignitionman full HEI. The carb was recently rebuilt and the fuel pump and water pump are new (1,500 miles on all). The radiator has been recored and it has a 2 exhaust system on it with Walker long case mufflers and an X-pipe.

After reading this forum for the past 10 months or so and talking to a bunch of the guys in person, this is what Im thinking of doing:

Block-
Boiled out and magnafluxed. Bored over the minimum amount depending on any wear or damage found in the cylinders (car has 71kmi on it). Align honed, possibly bored, as required. I dont plan to have it decked as whatever markings are on the deck surface I would like to preserve. All threads chased. And clean, clean, clean! Question: Any oil mods I should be doing to the block (its a 71)?? I also plan on using main studs and ARP rod bolts for added strength/rigidity.

Heads-
I have secured a set of 70 Stage 1 heads. For those that remember, these are the heads Yardley borrowed from Alan W, but never installed due to concerns over exhaust seat depth and resulting valve tip heights being over 2.100. I have discussed this with Greg Gessler who advised that with a set of adjustable pushrods (I secured a set of the TA 5/16 already) this should not be an issue. These have been given to Greg for a street/strip port job, nuff said.

Rotating Assembly
Stock crank turned enough to clean it up. Bearing clearances set to no more than .002, preferably at .0015. Stock rods shot peened (necessary?) and resized. Forged pistons, probably the TRW teflon coated skirt units from TA in 10:1 compression range or the Wiseco units depending on how my funds are being stretched and what makes sense in meeting my goals. Im assuming that because I dont plan to deck the block I dont need to pursue notched pistons? What about rings?? Total Seal? TA chrome moly? What about wrist pins? Should I be buying new? I plan to replace the balancer with a TA repro unit. In terms of flywheel, any reason to go with a billet unit? Or is a stock replacement sturdy enough? I do plan on having this whole shooting match balanced.

Valve Train-
Not sure on cam. Im ok with a bit of a lope at idle, but only as an accomodation to making power. Maybe the TA C113 or similar? Ive read a lot about cams on this board, but am still gun shy on making a selection. Lifters are another question. Ive done some research here about Chevy vs Buick lifters and availability vs quality of both and could frankly use some guidance. As mentioned, I do have a set of adjustable pushrods already, so the shorter Chevy lifters shouldnt be a problem if they are the better choice. I am planning on the teflon double groove TA cam bearings. Id like to spring for roller rockers if I can afford it and if it makes sense to you guys with what my goals are. If not, Im assuming it would make sense from a strength perspective to replace the aluminum rockers that are in there with steel rockers. Im also thinking of the TA steel billet double roller timing chain (clearance issue with fuel pump??).

Oiling system-
Im planning on sending my timing cover out to trishield perf for any recommended porting work and oil pump modifications. Any other recommended oiling system mods???

Gaskets-
Im thinking a full set of Felpros, with the exception of using the TA orange crush head gasket that Ive read quite a few positive things about here.

Well, Im sure many of you are reading this and seeing either glaring omissions, things Im planning that arent right, or possibly even areas where Im planning to waste money or time. Please feel free to comment on any of the above. Any help I can get will be appreciated. Ive rebuilt exactly one motor in my life about twenty years ago, and that was just doing enough to have transportation. In other words, Im lacking in experience. I hope I haven't revealed the true depths of my ignorance.

As stated above, I want to do this once and do it right. I do have a budget, but if my budget means cutting corners, well then Ill just wait until I save more.

Thanks for reading this long post and I look forward to any comments you might have. Im in learning mode.

 

I'm gonna be watchin' this one 'cause...

These are the same questions I've been asking myself. I will be especially interested in your piston selection and the reason(s) why.

Please keep this thread updated, so I can tag along with you!!:TU:

 

Unless I've read wrong, you're gonna be short on your desired compression ratio unless you deck you block, I think those TRW pistons set pretty far down in the hole.

 

Hey Len-

Thanks for the reply. The TRW pistons I'm referring to are the TA 1621A listed on their website as 10.1:1. So this ratio is only true if the block is decked?

Thanks,

Ken

 

Ken....I know you've prolly thought it but let me be the first to put it in writing to you.....

Consider building a "Play" motor and put the #'s matching block in a blanket for a nice nap.

When you think of all you're going to do machine shop wise, you're only really talking about the cost of a good core block (3-500??) being the difference between going on the tame side and worrying about hurting the original motor.....or building something with a lot more snot dripping from the tailpipes

Given the cars' history with you, resale value isn't probably one of the decision factors so having the original block tucked away safe vs. under the hood shouldn't really matter much - unless you WANT to have it underhood, and thats understandable too.

BTW, I'm VERRRRRY glad and happy that those heads will be part of a GSX rebuild !! Much better than sitting on the shelf in my garage like they've been for 4 years now. They're "Born to Run".

I'll leave the true Build-up to the experts - Im maybe 1 step ahead of you as I did Yank my original motor, and install the 464 but I played the role of general contractor more than builder with my engine. I, like you, did my homework and talked to alot of knowledgeable people and learned alot.... then "pulled the trigger" and ordered all the parts and dropped it off at the machine shop for them to work their magic.

BTW....I was at my parents house 2 weekends ago and bonded with my original #'s matching motor still in wraps in their garage. Its been out now for 7 years.

 

I know I'm just an observer, but using THIS calculator, I come up with 9.72:1.

The figures I used are the following:
My stock cast pistons are approx. .044 in the hole of my non-decked stock block. I don't plan on decking the block in order to preserve the numbers, either.

My combustion chambers after some mild clean up/polishing by me are approx. 70 cc's on my non-stage1 heads.

Recently it was stated that SpeedPro .030" over pistons had a dish of approx. 23 cc's. I'm not sure about TA's.

I used steel shim head gasket figure of .020".

 

Hey Alan-

I have definitely gone back and forth on the numbers match question. I had a brief conversation with Al Fiandaca at Berwyn and his comment about having done it both ways and leaning toward numbers match if he ever did it again finally swayed me.

I guess I keep coming back to asking myself what's the point of having numbers match if it ain't in the car? There may be some good reasons for putting the motor aside, but I can't figure any, at least that satisfy me for what I'm after. I suppose if I was planning on building something that was high on fun factor, and also high on grenade potential factor, it would make sense.

I'd rather have the numbers match in there and be able to say so, even if it means playing it a bit safe. I know if I don't put that #'s motor back in it will never go back in. And you're right, resale value is not a big concern for me. The car is one of the last earthly possessions I'd sell if I was getting down to my last few nickels! Too much history for me to let it go.

And I am very excited to have those heads from you. I can't wait to get them on my motor! Hopefully, Mr Gessler will work his magic on them and wake up my build. I also hear you on the general contractor bit. I have the benefit of Carl Rychlik and Tom Telesco in the area to ask for advice on what to do and where to do it as I proceed.

 

Hi Ken. From my experience with Buick motors, it sounds like you are on the right track. I am after the same thing you are as far as what I expect from my motor. My current engine and the last one i built I used .030 Hypereutectic pistons from Poston with hastings moly rings, and With the 73 heads i estimated 9.3:1 compression. AS far as the crank, I would look at it first before assuming you are going to have to have it cut. If the motor is running fine, chances are it can be polished and you can use a .001 oversize bearing to tighten up the clearances. I would stay away from Main cap studs and use a set of ARP main bolts. Arp rod bolts also. Set all your clearances to .002 or tighter. The cam I used was the T/A 112 cam. It revved to 5500 no problem and has a real nice rpm range. I'm not a big fan of lumpy cams and that cam was perfect! The current heads I'm using are ported stage 1 heads with a very good bowl cleanup and gasket matched. The timing cover is fairly straightforward, just run a thrust plate and put in new gears and the heavy spring. No reason to get it blueprinted. I used the oiling mods from poston as well.. one to link the lifter galleys and the other to oil the distributor gear. Use an edelbrock or T/A intake. I currently run a edelbrock and I like it alot. Rockers..., I used new Sealed power rocker assemblies. Go to advanced auto and buy them individually instead of as a set, they are actually cheaper... like 80 bucks for the full set brand new with the nylon retainers. I would spring for a set of lifters from T/A as the replacement lifters always tick and its not worth the 40 bucks you would save on the cheaper ones.

My car I dynoed back in june and I made 321 HP and 417lb/ft of torque at the rear wheels. Since then, I had the distributor curved which is a huge difference. If you haven't done it yet, I highly recommend it. I also leaned out the carb as it was a little rich and I put in an X pipe which got rid of a nasty vibration. If the X smoothed out the car as much as it did, I'm guessing I got some HP from that. I'm going back to the dyno on sunday and I should see how much I gained. I'm hoping for 350hp at the wheels and 430-40 torque.

Bob

 

Hey Bob-

Thanks for the info.

Why do you recommend staying away from main studs? I assumed this was the strongest solution for not much different $$ than ARP bolts. Is there a fitment or performance issue there?

I just found Poston's website, so I'll have to spend some time there checking out the oil mods you mentioned and whatever else they might have to offer. I've been to the TA site often, but didn't even realize Poston had a site.

And thanks for the tip on the rockers. The rollers sound nice, but I'm not convinced I'm planning enough motor to make good use of them for the $$. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, however.

Good luck on Sunday at the dyno! Post how you make out.

 

BTW, is the Buick Engine Book from Poston worth a read?

 

Hello Ken

I am more of a contractor myself. But fwiw I would consider giving Greg your carb after its been setup your intake and exhaust manifolds. Have him port & flow the whole thing. Like the heads it does not have to be a port and flow to the nines big labor kind of job. Also use 3" pipe from exhaust manifold to X pipe.

To go "Fast with Class" assemble with "patience & measurements."

 

Ken, I'm thinking you might have some clearance issues with main studs..The oil pan might not bolt in. I have a real tight pan that I had to clearance to fit over the stock bolts... strange but true. also, it sounds like your builidng a relatively mild motor so I'm thinking of cost probably isn't worth it.

You had said that you were thinking of align boring the motor also.. Kinda expensive unless its needed.. if you spun a main bearing.

Just my .02

Bob

 

Good Morning Bob-

Thanks for the feedback on the main bolts. I was reading up on them on TA's website and did notice they made mention of having accurate length to avoid oil pan clearance problems. I'll be sure to discuss this with them when I call to make sure there are no issues. Otherwise I'll go with bolts. Thanks for the tip!

On the align bore, that would only be done if absoultely necessary, as you say. I have good oil pressure, have never spun a bearing, and the bottom end doesn't make any noise, so I'm probably good there. Also, good tip on the crank, in terms of measuring before cutting. The engine only has 71 kmi and, as I said, no scary bottom end noises, so maybe I'm good there (with a .001 cleanup).

Vern-

I really want to get those parts ported, but need to see where the money takes me. Definitely on my radar! Thanks!

:TU:

 

If you have any interest in coming up for the dyno sunday, a bunch of my friends and I rented it for the day on sunday. The weather is supposed to be nice. 3 pulls with air/fuel is 60.00. we'll be there all day. ?????

 

Being a bit gunshy about the cam, maybe get the heads flowed first. This will really help in the cam selection as you'll know what will match up nicely.

Since it's going for streetability, are you sticking with the 800 Q-jet?

 

OK, Clint, I think Greg does flow the heads as part of his porting. Even if not, I think he charges something like $50. So, if I have flow numbers, know what pistons I will be putting in, have a deck height, and a combustion chamber cc, is the next step desktop dyno? Is that what you were thinking? Thanks for the advice.

Bob, I think I'll skip the dyno this time around. I'm sure the numbers on my motor wouldn't be too impressive, as I've got pretty much no compression in #1, and low compression in the other three corners. Thanks for the invite, though.

 

Hey Ken,

I'm with Alan on this one. I'd take the motor out and build a good core that means NOTHING. I know it's nice to say it's a numbers matching motor under the hood, but think if something BAD happens to it, and it could (bye bye matching block) At that point, you could kiss about 10k in resell bye bye too.

You can always take a picture of the numbers matchin Vin stamped on the block in your garage and pack it in the car with you for disbeilvers....... You better yet, just say it's a numbers matching car. They don't have to know the motor that completes it isn't in the car (but it is in your posession).

Anyway, If my 71 455 was a #'s matching car when I got it (the motor was long gone, but the buildsheet was there) There's now way I would have stuck the charger on that block. It would have been pulled and set aside for safe keepings. Having a non numbers matching motor in the car will not take away from the fun, it will just help you protect the rare beast that you have and help keep it 100% original for the years to come.....

that's my .02

 

I am using a '71 block too, and '71 stage one heads (converted from standard valves). I calculated my compression with the pistons you were going to use to be 10.1:1 with the standard version (22cc) and 9.8:1 with the notched version (25cc). This was at 0 deck with a .040" gasket. From what I understand, without decking your block, they could possibly end up .060 to .100 in the hole, which could put your compression anywhere from low 8's to low 9's. If you don't want to deck the block, I would look for earlier small chamber heads, and choose different pistons.
If it were me, I would wrap the block up in plastic, store it in a dry place, and build something else. It only makes sense. Even if it isn't going to be a monster motor, S**t happens, and you won't ever have the correct block for your car if it does. Ask my dad (mrgransport) about his '70 stage 1. The original owner trashed the block and it has a 430 in it now.

 

Desktop Dyno is one resource yes, but I was thinking that a reliable flow test would tell you how well your exhaust flows -vs- intake, overall numbers at low lift etc. That should help you pick a cam to match the heads, maybe crutch weaker areas etc.

Tinkering with Desktop Dyno will let you see (with a rough approximation) how various splits in lift, duration, and centre of the cams available will work with your heads. The expert opinions & established tests will be more valuable though. For example, lower exhaust flow #'s characteristic to specific heads may work better with a longer duration exhaust cam??

The experts here will have a better idea of what effects the cam will have on any Buick-specific quirks you find in your heads.

At the very least it wil take the guesswork out of your cam selection.

Hope that helps!

 

Or... for carshows, etc. put a sticky label over the dash VIN .. "Nosy SOB, aincha?!".