Front shocks for "super-sized" 64-67 Special/Skylarks?

Dear fans of mid-60s "super-sized" V-8 Buicks,

I'm pondering my suspension options with an eye to eventually towing my dream Airstream travel trailer. Back circa 1980 (before the compact disc even!) one could buy load-leveling front shock absorbers for my trusty 1965 Buick Special wagon. Today, even Summit racing has nothing more beefy than passenger grade shock absorbers for the front. The only other thing they list are really fancy (and expensive) Ride-Tech air shocks. I don't even see heavy-duty front shocks for the 1965 Gran Sport.

Am I missing something here? o No: Are you guys really running standard-duty front shocks on your big-block equipped Skylarks and Specials? If you are using heavy-duty shocks - which ones? What sort of modifications did you have to make to use them?

Thanks, as always, for all the good automobile wisdom to be contributed here! :TU:

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

KYB Gas-a-just shocks are decent for the price.
You could go to a larger diameter shock, but you have to enlarge the opening in the lower control arm a little to get them in there.

 

How beefy are KYB Gas-a-just? (Re: Front shocks for 64-67 Special/Skylarks?)

Hi Walt and Mid-60s Buick fans,

Are these the shocks you were thinking of (at Summit: )

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/kyb-kg4515

I couldn't find any indication that these shocks were particularly "heavy-duty." Is the design good enough to compensate for the extra inertial mass of a big-block?

I'd prefer to not do make that sort of modification unless there was some really signficant benefit. Going with a larger stock shock . . . . seems like too little improvement for the trouble.

Any additional opinions out there?

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1964-1967...s-Coil-Over-Kits/Bilstein-HD-Front-Shock.html

May do the trick.

 

Bilstein does look promising (Re: Front shocks for 64-67 Special/Skylarks?)

Hi Korrie and V-8 Buick wagon fans,

Thanks! :TU: The Bilstein shocks do appear significantly more beefy. That might be good enough to solve my problem at least as long as keep by trailer aspirations . . . . . in check! :grin:

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

I'm going to say spring selection is more important for handling the weight of a big-block. The shocks are merely dampeners for the spring.
Cargo springs for the rear have a progressive rate that will ride nice unloaded, and won't sag as much when a lot of weight is placed on them.

Are there weight-distributing hitches available for wagons? They should make a significant improvement in handling when hauling.

KYB 4515 shocks can be had for $35 from Amazon. The Bilsteins are nice but cost more. Edelbrocks were reported to be good ones as well.

 

Edouard,

Those cargo springs that Walt mentioned are what I was telling you about a few days ago, I couldn't think of what they were called.

Good post Mr. Walt!

 

Shocks, stability, and load-equalizing hitches (Re: Front shocks 64-67 Special?)

Hi Walt, Michael, and V-8 Buick multi-use car fans,

Well not quite. Yes it is the springs that set the weight handling, but as you say, the shock dampen the springs. If the springs are much stronger than what the shocks are designed to dampen, then your front end will bounce more than a car with a 300 cid. Since stability is already an issue for this car, I'm concerned not to to be able find shocks specifically designed to handle the extra weight of a big-block engine.

Actually, what need to be built into the car is a hitch receiver. The muffler shop that will be installing my exhaust can custom build the receiver and they claim they can built it take up to the frame's limit of up to a 10,000 lbs. trailer (obviously, do not ever try to see if the test if the receiver can actually handle that much weight! :shock

I've been confused about what a load-equalizing hitch worked until I read this web-article on HowStuffWorks:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...itches/towing-weight-distribution-systems.htm

Here is a picture of a load-equalizing hitch from the same article:



If you look carefully, this "hitch" is a steel rig that goes into the receiver tube and then provides a trailer ball that is vertically offset from a pair of steel torsion arms. Those torsion arms are then twisted upward by the chains attached to the trailer tongue arms. Because the car frame is rigid and so is the trailer frame, the torsion bars act like a bow lifting the two frames upward. The trailer ball itself becomes the fulcrum. That moves the weight of the tongue toward the car's front wheels and the trailers wheels. At the same time, the torsion bars insure that enough downward force is applied on the trailer ball for stability.

With this technique, your front wheels carry some of the trailer tongue weight. That helps stability and improving braking. All this is wonderful, . . . . except.

Obviously, the extra weight you've now dumped onto the front wheels needs to be dealt with somehow. Which is what led me to this very question about front shocks. If I could find some sort of load-equalizing shocks for the front of my trusty wagon - I would be all set. Alas, that is the very search I have failed on.

As far as I can tell, these shocks are probably good enough to deal with the heavier springs required for the car to get her big-block by itself. However, if I finally find the travel trailer of my dreams, I'll have to find something different to deal with the extra load on the front end produced by the load-equalizing hitch.

Oh well, o No:

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

If you install a big fat firebird sway bar on front and use a 1" or larger swaybar on the rear you will force the shocks to rise and fall in pairs.
I put a Hellwig anti sway bar on the rear of my GS. It connects to the axle and upper crossmember where the upper arms mount. You can stand beside my car trunk and try to bounce one side down, but it is impossable to do because you have to compress both rear shocks and won't drop but an inch (both sides move equally) no mater how hard I try. I removed my front swaybar and the whole car still is solid level on bumps and dips.
A big firebird front swaybar would really do the job with the Hellwig on the rear. I use the cheapest gas shock I can find and soft small wire springs. You would never know it.
With a hitch.... Go with a set of bars FIRST. The rest will make less difference. Cuss me if I'm wrong.

---------- Post added 04-14-2013 at 12:05 AM ---------- Previous post was 04-13-2013 at 11:22 PM ----------

Hellwig 55864 will fit rear of 1964-67 skylark.
This is 1 1/8" tubular. Way better than gm bars that bolt to lower control arms.
I tried both. No comparison!

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

Hellwig 55703 front tubular 1 5/16"

 

On the to-do list. (Re: Front shocks for "super-sized" 64-67 Special/Skylarks?)

Hi Gary and V-8 Buick suspension experts.

Thanks for the suggestion! I was already contemptlating upgrading the sway bars front and back. My only question was exactly which size. I thought I wouldn't go with the largest possible to avoid making the suspension too stiff and thus make the ride too uncomfortable. The goal is a vacation cruiser so I would like to spend hours driving without the equivalent of being "saddle-sore." However, this cannot happen until the engine is installed and some preliminary driving tests have been made. So it is on the back burner for now.

By the way Greg at Orinda Motors upgraded the shocks front and rear to KYB Gas-a-Just shocks:

http://www.kyb.com/products/shocks/gasajust.php

That should be fine for daily driving.

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

The shocks and springs mostly determine a smooth or stiff ride. I never noticed any difference in ride quality with swaybars except on hard turns which became firmer and more level.
That is why I found that good anti-sway bars are number 1.
The front swaybar is usually a little larger than the rear as with the well-matched part numbers I listed above.
One more thing...the problems in towing often involve uncontroled sway and jack knifing. Sway bars keep the shocks working together and the tires firmly planted.
GET the equalizing hitch (like a giant front/rear sway bar) to prevent nose dive and front/rear galloping and loss of control.
As for shocks...any "Good" shocks will do. KYB is excellent.

Springs...your 1965 does not share the same springs on the rear as 67-72 A body. You will have to search for a spring to fit.
A variable rate spring is good for wagons but the equalizer hitch compensates very well. You may not need to worry. Try what you got first.

 

Good advice! (Re: Front shocks for "super-sized" 64-67 Special/Skylarks?)

Dear Gary and V-8 Buick suspension experts,

Your advice seems sound. I'm curious though, if sway bars have essentially no effect on comfort, why weren't they adopted sooner in the US? Was it mostly cost and tradition? Certainly Americans seemed to warm up to European tuned suspensions easily enough and left Detroit scrambling.

Okay that's very good reasons to get the beefiest sway bars that are practical for my trusty wagon. I'll take your advice! :TU:

Yes an load equalizing hitch is definitely planned.

I'll look into a variable rate spring. Given that she is a wagon after all and may carry heavy things, this may be a requirement. One other mousetrap is suspension air-bags like this Air Lift kit:

http://shop.airliftcompany.com/product/495106/60750/_/Air_Lift_1000;_Coil_Spring_Leveling_Kit

I'll be checking into all of these when the time to actually tow something heavy finally arrives!

Thanks again for the good advice!!

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

* The old performance Pontiacs were usually fitted with big sway bars front and rear. Many Olds 442's had rear bars added. Most Buicks had only a medium size front bar only. Don't know why .
Pontiac persued a road racer image when they first came out with bigger engines and ran NASCAR in early 1960's. The GTO carried that image on. (The very name "GTO" was inspired by European racing imagery.) Pontiac advertised "widetrac ride" into their image as a roadhugger and likewise the swaybars fit right in.

Air Bags... are handy and ride good. I have used a couple of sets in the past.
But, air lines get brittle and leak, also, friction wears away the bag walls if too low pressure is used. Just 10 lbs of air kept the rear higher than I wanted so I gave them up.
I decided to modify my wheel wells for tire clearance and chose a height spring I wanted, then add the big rear anti sway bar and not buy any more air bags. Less hassle now.
Air Shocks...I hated them. Very harsh ride and cause severe wheel hop.

 

Technology where it is appropriate (Re: "super-sized" 64-67 Special/Skylarks?)

Hi Gary and V-8 Buick suspension experts,

I was just curious. The choice could have been nothing more than cost. If the Buick crowd wasn't going to appreciate beefy sway bars why not make a bigger profit and omit them?

Well, this all depends on the travel trailer I settle on. For a 500 lbs. teardrop nothing especial needed. But for a 20+ foot Airstream . . . . . hmmmmm.

Trying to tow something substantially heavier than the car requires special measures, but it can be done. Certainly, if you want to tow something that heavy, you'd better be willing to make the effort of making sure the air hoses are in good working order (and a whole lot of other stuff!)

My understanding is that folks who take on hitching a big (vintage) travel trailer to their vintage car (station wagon) have been very happy with the additional control that air-bags provide. I think in my case it will ultimately boil down to how greedy I get! :grin:

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

good advice. You will enjoy the swaybars and they won't make it feel rougher, just more "solid." I do, however like airbags and have not had issues with them.

 

Air is soooo compressable/expandable it can contribute to nosedive when braking hard. I don't give air bags much credit for contributing to "control".
A thick spacer used with air bags would allow more effect with less air, and would help correct the above problems, however.

Keep in mind that the use of various air pressures means you have various wheel alignment as well.

 

Assuming air-bags front and rear (Re: "super-sized" 64-67 Special/Skylarks?)

Hi Gary and V-8 Buick suspension experts,

Well my hope is to use the best combination of technologies. I would try to get variable loading springs for the rear rather than exclusively relying on the air-bags for taking the additional tongue weight. I want to use a load equalizing hitch and therefore I think I need a complete front and rear air-bag assist system. That way I can balance the tongue weight more evenly and the front suspension will get additional help when braking.

Still, there are no miracles in stopping something more than twice as heavy as the car alone. When towing you've got to be extra cautious, also for extra distance for stopping and invariably drive more slowly at all times, even on surface streets. There is no free lunch and if you want to take your "house" with you, you've got to make the compromises associated with the extra weight.

I'm not sure what you mean by that? I was thinking about one of these fancy air-bag systems with an on-board compressor and built-in presets. So that I would calibrate my compressor system for a given load such that the car comes back to the correct alignment and then lock that preset. Then when the trailer comes off, I would go to the unloaded preset and the car would return to its unloaded configuration. Am I missing something here?

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------

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Not sure right air-bags exist (Re: "super-sized" 64-67 Special/Skylarks?)

Hi Gary and V-8 Buick suspension fans,

Well, the system that I had identified was this one from Air-Bag-It:

http://www.airbagit.com/Air-Suspension-kits-all-4-wheels-p/fbs-bui-40-kit3.htm

Not sure it will do what I want though. Their website is very confusing and I cannot tell if this kit can be used for towing or is purely a low-rider kit.

The kit that seems to be precisely tailored to towing is this combo from Air Lift:

Lift bags: http://shop.airliftcompany.com/product/495106/60750/_/Air_Lift_1000;_Coil_Spring_Leveling_Kit

and on-board compressor: http://shop.airliftcompany.com/product/495106/72000/_/WirelessAIR_On-Board_Air_Compressor_System

However the Air Lift setup only provides additional help for the rear axle. Some folks on the Station Wagon Forum have gone this route and are very pleased even if they are using a load equalizing hitch.

Honestly, I think I would prefer the Air Lift approach, but would be concerned that the load equalizing hitch would transfer too much of the load to the front of the car. That is why I started my search for load-leveling shocks in the front. When my Dad and I first looked into equipping our trusty wagon to tow, you could buy variable rate spring front shocks that could handle as much as 300 additional pounds on the front. I sure wish they still existed as that would solve my problem right there and then.

Perhaps the better mousetrap is to go with the Air Lift rear-bags and get some custom variable load springs for the front that could handle any excess load and avoid the headaches of any air-bags in the front.

Well, I don't know about Macy's, but Biquette ("Billy Goat") spent most of her life where parts from Sears and J. C. Whitney was as good as it got. She got me through all that, it is time to give her something in return for all her faithful service.

Cheers, Edouard :beer

 

Still say "bully-goat" is a lucky kid. Bought my 67 GS 400 for $350 in 1976. Had rod knock. Bought blown 430 and JCWhitney kit for less than $100. Put parts from two engines together, measured nothing and never had a problem. Been doing junk yards and used parts for my Buicks since 1960. My first two Buicks got totaled by an x friend then my x wife. I' still trying to have fun; but still poor....Hear that Billy? You lucky kid...