When I first aproached Dan regarding the '58 he was less than enthusiastic. Not being a performance image car and all. So I had to prove the case. Fortunately it covered highest rated hp of the '50's, multiple carbs, dual exhaust, aluminum intake, cold air induction, and the "engine from the full size (Lincoln) installed in the mid size (Mercury)". Size being relative of course :laugh: But to top it off the sales literature stated you could get the 400Hp "For the ultimate in performance" :TU: Ultimate being relative too.:laugh: :laugh:
They were not enthusiastic about the '57 either, But not against it either. Kind of build it, bring it and we'll see. Does this mean a Chrysler 300, or a Buick Riv GS wouldn't be acceptable? I think if you limit this to GTO's and SS396's you're going to lose a lot of interesting cars and eventually lose spectators.
I would think anything with dual exhaust and at least a 4bbl carb should be legal.Wasn't there some 350 LeMans Pontiac's at Stanton?I don't think they were marketed as muscle.
Fortunatly folks like us push the limit. A Riv GS and 300 would be welcome. I asked Dan if I could run the '58 as a 383 4V car.........he said no.
In my opinion, the cars mentioned previously have as much, or more, "musclecar image" as the Studebakers. To an extent, I'm sure that the era that you grew up has an influence on what you may consider a muscle car.
So, what is being implied here is that unless a car has the obvious MUSCLE CAR image/pedigree, than it better have the ability to raise eyebrows, spark interest, or have a "WOW! factor" above and beyond the "regular" car would have?? Using your example Brian, it seems that a "normal" 383-4v Merc would not have enough ~WOW!~ behind it, but building it as a 430/400 tri power sure carries it over the top. I think Frank Rice's '57 has the same effect. A regular 312 '57 would get a cursory glance from me, but with a factory supercharger, I'll stare at it for hours. The Studebakers have the same effect. I guess it it like Steve said, it depends upon your memory and era you noticed cars in. Chevelles, GTOs, Road Runners and Camaros I saw PLENTY of during my formative years. But being able to see Brian's '58 Mercury, Ted Harbit's '63Lark, or Frank Rice's '57 blower 312----now THOSE are special. I never saw those as a kid, only read about them in magazines, and that is why they really pull me back to this event year after year. The variety of rare factory iron is the flame to us moths and is what makes the PSMCDR so special. I can see Dan and Bob's point of trying to keep it as "original" as they can. Otherwise the event would just turn into another garden variety cruise night/bracket race. That being said, it only leaves me with one question: What on God's green earth is my small block grandpa car Dart doing out there??!!??
I guess if you march to the tune that the first real muscle car was the 64 GTO, then doesn't make sense to have the limits for th year of the car go back to 1955. I assume they did that to include the 55-7 Chevies, and maybe the 55 Chrysler 300. Many consider that the first muscle car. In true highjacking fashion, though, :laugh: we take the definition of a big powerful engine in a lightweight body, hard to argue with the 1950 Olds 88 which put the new high compression (for the times)OHV V8 (that really came out in 1949) in the lightweight Chev A body. :gp:
Talk about a can of worms........ I was nixed on the 427 Impala because it was a 4 dr hardtop (I think Dan called it a towing package) - it ran low 14's - pure stock :moonu: . OK, I kinda get that. BUT the 72 Chevelle "SS" with a 8:1 cr 350 was more than OK because it had the "Image" (although not in my mind - and probably would have run 17's at best!). I never ran it and sold it because to me, It was definitely NOT a muscle car. I guess "Musclecar Image" rules out any of the sleeper cars that weren't mainstream (which is quite a few of you). I agree on the 4bbl / dual exhaust and understand the need to do some restricting, but I think any car of that era with at least a 4 bbl and duals, and is PURE stock, is a limit in itself - didn't see many on Woodward in August. I guess the real question is, do you want this to grow in participants, or do you want to make it an exclusive club? To find, or to put together a car to run in this event (unless you already have one) is not for the faint-of-pocketbook - especially if you have to get into a big-block anything. Ok, I guess that is my sour-grapes rant :rant: , I feel better now....back to work. I love the concept of this event. Maybe you could break it into two groups - Pure Stock Musclecar, and just plain Pure stock ( or Pure Stock Classic - same limit on Model years).
Then maybe the idea of bringing Dads' 57 Golden Fury should go to the far back burner since it only had a dual-quad 318 rated at 290hp. The reason he bought one like it new was the fact that Grandpa won't sign on the line for a FI 210 '57 but he would sign for a "Fury". Little did Gramps known til it was to late that the 318 had 2-4's:bla: What is going to be the thoughts when a '70 Sport Fury GT shows up packing a 440+6? Will a '71 SP GT get shot down since it only has a 4bbl? Now, where did I park that '58 EFI Desoto..............yes EFI!
The 440-6 Sport Fury will fly Lon. It was a performance upgrade and an image enhancer. Same thing with the Hurst Chrysler 300. If they allow a 4900lb. Buick Centurion with a 4.10 geared, Stage 1 455, then the Fury GT is a "go". As far as the 57 Fury with the dual quad 318...........after all it IS a dual quad car, and it has more cubes than Paul Richards 283 or the Studebaker 259, so why not??o No:
I'm certain that Dan and Bob have no interest in an exclusive club, but I'm equally certain that growth is something to be managed carefully. Without a single rule change, they attract a large number of cars -- a number which grows slightly every year. Why mess with the "purity" of the event if you've got all you can handle as it is? Do you want 200 cars? 300? How much track time will you get then? If that many showed up, might you regret letting the genie out of the bottle by allowing fringe cars that stray too far from what is commonly recognized as a muscle car? Will the magazines still be interested if half the matches are Cuda vs. Electra (or the equivalent)? It may have been tempting in the early years for them to allow yahoos like me to race in a less-than-pure state. But give Dan and Bob credit to sticking to their vision and growing the event as it stands.
Why would you not bring a dual quad Fury? It's not a wagon or four door and I'll bet there is literature touting performance. As far as a Sport Fury GT 440+6?.......well that's a no brainer. Sport.....Fury......GT.......plus it has a performance engine. If you can get that '58 Desoto Adventurer with the Bendix EFI out to race..:TU: :TU: Regarding four doors I was told no deal on a 4 door 427 Galaxie and that's a good thing. After 150 cars this year do I want it to grow?.............NO!:laugh: :laugh:
Hey, wait just a minute...what are you trying to pull?! My latest MCE says that "The 1959 Chrysler 300E was America's most powerful performance car"...there can't be *2* most powerfuls!!!! :laugh:
Rob Clary reminded me of someones statement years ago: Defining a Muscle Car is like defining Porn. Difficult to do.....but you'll know it when you see it.:laugh: :laugh:
There weren't.....the 400HP Merc wasn't offered in '59. :bla: But it still eclipsed the '59 Chrysler for the decade. :laugh:
I have to agree with Brian E. here. It's been a long-standing event that has grown EVERY year so far with a consistent set of rules. There is no "exclusive" club. If it fits within the definition of the rules, bring it. If it is in-question, give Dan or Bob a call and ask 'em. Stefina did with his Mercury and was greeted initially with negative input, and then had to prove his case. No problem there. He put Dan on information-overload on '58 Mercury's. Dan now knows more about '58 Mercs than he probably EVER cared to know. :laugh: This isn't only relegated to the less-than noticed musclecars either. I seem to remember a similar discussion revolving around L88 and ZL1 Corvettes ...... :bla: Should they or shouldn't they .... bla bla bla But if they poo-poo my W-34 Toro GT ..... boy am I gonna be pissed ! :grin:
I agree with that statement. Having 150 cars there did make for a longer wait to get passes in. I didn't mind too much; my car was running OK. I actually got to watch more racing. But, if I was chasing problems, it would get a little irritating. Got lucky this time. Glad they let me play in the event.
Would it be a bad thing if it became a three day event?What kind of car count would warrant a three day schedule?200?250?
I noticed way too much idle time this year for whatever reasono No: I don't feel it had anything to do with car count, more like bad track help. I really don't know what the deal was this year, there was only one lane open at the gates Friday morning, which slowed getting in, then of course the wind and rain didn't help things Friday morning either. But, why did it take so long to get things going Saturday morning, and then at best you only got one run in It seemed like we got done fairly early Saturday afternoon, and there was plenty of time left for some grudge racing, which several of us did, but most loaded up and split early. Hopefully 2008 will be back to normal weather,track prep,track help:TU: I heard a rumor that Dan & Bob might ask the track exclusively for our event next year, no being rushed out of there for the bracket crap.
