New engine - smoking -oil problem?

When my 464 warms up, it starts to smoke both out of the tail pipes and some smoke out of the breather. Smoke is bluish/gray in color. Reving the engine only produces more smoke. Here's the combo on engine-and it does not have over an hour and a half of running time on it. Has great oil pressure, 70 lbs at 4000.
Stage II heads (caste iron), 1050 holly, zero decked, forged pistons, solid TA cam and lifters, girdle etc. 12:1 comp.
Short block was assembled by Jim Grubbs motor sports out here in So. Calif. Rings are Childs and Albert.
Almost from day one the engine smoked. I changed the carb yesterday to see if that would make a difference, it didn't. I've been told that it may take some time for the rings to seat. Ya, but how long? Would like to have the car at Vegas but as of now-doesn't look good. Don't want to have a Buick smoking out the pipes as it goes down the track. And I'm running out of time. Just wouldn't look good for Buck people. As always, many thanks.

Len

 

Hopefully its because the intake didn't seal, and is pulling oil into the ports. Otherwise, rings or valve guidesou:

Are you SURE you got a good seal on the intake??

HTH's

Jeff

 

Fastest/easiest thing to check: Make sure you have valve guide seals - question for the masses - Do most of our non-stock 455s have them on both intake AND exhaust? Service manual indicates only on the intake for a stock 455. 350s have seals on both valves.

After you check this easy thing, time to dig deeper. :ball:

 

Mine has seals on both valves. They were cut down so the smaller chevy seal would fit and woudn't interfear with my dual springs.

 

Engine smoking problem

Jeff and others, how would I know on the intake? Heads do have valves guides. What about a "Leak down test" I've heard of it but not sure how or what I would need to complete that test.

Len

 

Leakdown test would be the most logical place to start. Jegs, Summit Racing, amoungst others.

http://order.harborfreight.com:9100...t/results.jsp?ts=Wed Sep 10 14:37:53 PDT 2003

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=85497&prmenbr=361

Here's some good reading on what why and how-to on leakdown testers. Also how to make one!
http://www.xs11.com/tips/misc/misc3.shtml

If the intake manifold gasket is leaking, if you carefully remove intake, you will SEE oil tracking on gasket and in the ports!
BTW, which intake gasket did you use??

HTH's,

Jeff

 

This happened to me. It turned out that the intake to head alignment was off. Take a .004 feeler and try to slide it between the head and intake. The gasket should not allow this. I was able to do this in several places. It looked sealed but was not at the valley side of the intake and sucked oil into the intake port.

On a new motor with zero decked block and old heads with X cleanup. This is very likely unless you cut the intake to match.

Easy fix.

 

That's kinda what I'm thinking..

 

I used a feeler gauge and did as you suggested, it's tight. I also know the smoke is oil....Nothing connected from the trans to the intake. I borowed a leak down tester and will be doing that this morning. Robert V. of Fast Track Performance fiddled with carb for about 45 minutes. He thinks the rings are O.K. as de celeration showed good vacuum. (HUH?) He determined air bleeds are too small. O.K. now what on the carb? Oil is not puddeling up in cylinder heads, checked that also. Perhaps pulling through valve guides-possibility I suppose. I will pull the intake today also and see if I can spot a problem with oil going into the intake runners. Intake was milled and bolts go in straight. Still, could be a problem. I'll let you all know...Really do appreciate all your fine efforts on my behalf.

Len

 

Len, I'd make sure the valve springs you're using and the valve guide seals were meant to play well together, and that they're still OK. Other than that, a ring broke during assembly???

 

Thanks for the response John. Here's what I accomplished yesterday. I used "snap-ons" leak down tester. Engine was not warm, and I had the instrument pressure input at over 100 lbs. Got increadably high numbers on virtually all the cylinders, from 18 to 36 Percent leakage. After I spoke with Jim Grubbs, he said to lower the pressure to 80lbs, (that was snap on says but I didn't have directions as I borowed the unit) and have engine warm. I lowered the pressure, engine still cold, and readings now were in the 10% area. I plan on doing it warm today but since I had the covers off etc., I pulled the intake manifold. I found perhaps one place on the driver's side where oil may sneak into the head intake from below the gasket. The top of the intake valves were wet, maybe a mixture of oil and gas. Before I pulled the intake, I used a 004 feeler guage as suggested and didn't find anything. Hard to say. The shiny intakes on the heads are now a golden color much like the color of the 110 octane gas I used. I will reinstall the intake today using a new gasket set. I hand built a valley cover, it's aluminum, not attached in any way to the heads and has drain holes in it. Seems to work fine.
On the springs and valve guide seals, they are the ones provided by Jim Burek that came with the heads.
I was going to use a bore scope to look at the cylinder walls but my friends is broken. Hummm. Still no real luck here but working mightly to get it ready. Again, suggestions and directions are more than welcome. Thanks as always.

Len

 

Well, the sad saga continues.Pullled the intake off, inspected everything as best I could. I did notice that the TA gaskets looked a bit thick, as the intake bolt holes did not line up exactly with the head holes. I changed the gasket to a very thin stock type and added blue rtu around the various areas.
I let it set up, filled the thing with water and started it up. While the car was cool, no smoke, but as it warmed up, smoke starts coming out the tail pipes under slight acceleration to about 2K RPM. Then as I reved the engine, smoke starts to pour out the exhaust pipe as well as the dip stick hole. I removed the dip stick, reved the engine fairly hard, and couldn't breath....so much smoke comning out the dip stick hole, an oily mist sprayed out. That's sad. Spark plugs are nice an gray. It's a sad day for me.....no car for Vegas, second year in a row...maybe I sit myself up to fail on these things...Jim Grubbs of JGM said he would come out if need be and check the engine over. His group built the short block from my parts. I had a year to complete the car, plenty of time, just figured a good carpet installation, some tuning, and off to Vegas as the motor didn't act like this 6 months ago. So I spent the better part of my time, making a 36 foot enclosed car carrier, self contained with fridge, stove, tolet, sink, water tanks, water heater etc. Plan was to have a nice place to sit around with V8 guys at Vegas, at least in the shade of the 20 foot canopy.
I also did a leak down test, with the engine warm. Percentage of loss varied, but all well over 10% with some cylinders showing near 30. Thanks for all your help guys.
I'll be in Vegas, sans Stage II iron head, but be there all the same.

Len

 

I am sorry to hear about your bad luck Len. It sounds like a ring problem to me. Mine did the same thing but it was after I lost a fan belt during a run at a track with a long way back to my pits, I have run this car since 1993 and never had a fan belt problem so I did not notice anything until it was to late, needless to say I check temp gauge after every pass now. I am not saying you overheated yours by any means, Just what happened to mine. Tom

 

Hi Tom. No I never overheated it. I don't think the engine has a total of four hours on it. The smoking just got worse over time. I once thought that it was just a problem with the rings seating. Now it looks much worse. I've been in contact with Jim Burek, following his suggestions as well as those on this list. Both have been a great deal of help. In retrospect, I probably should have spent more time on making sure the engine was up to par, trips to the track etc. I spent a great deal of time getting the exterior points correct and nice looking, paint, carpet, roll bars and all those goodies. doing it myself, and learning as I go with good pointers from Skip at Ron's Restore. So now I have a good looking Stage II buick that doesn't run worth a s__t. Oh well. Over the winter I will get it right. At least out here in So. Cal. we have two different drag strips, fairly close, within 30 or 40 miles, that are open year round I think. Plus I have some racing 'Stang friends, ya like 8's with a supercharged stang on gas only, that have offered to help in any way. The hobby is full of good people me thinks. especially the Buick crowd. Thanks again for your kind thoughts.


Len
Len

 

Hi Len, I also do all my own work on mine, mostly because I can't afford to have shops do work. Also there are very few places near me I would even trust to work on my car, I was lucky enough to work in a engine machine shop at my last job before I had to go on disability so on weekends I got to use the machines and did my own motor, If it ever comes unglued I don't know what I would do. Tom

 

Len,

Simple question, and I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but..

Are you running a PCV valve, and if so, what have you done to keep from sucking oil into it, from the lifter valley.. You must have some type of shield over it..

Easy check for this.. remove the carb, and look at the base gasket right around where the PCV vacuum hose is connected.. it will be wet with oil, if this is your issue.

I only suggest this, because you did not say if you were running one or not, just that you had TA's gaskets on the intake..

and nobody else asked..

JW

 

No insult taken Jim. I don't run a PCV valve. The short block was preped and assembled by Jim Grubbs Motorsports here in Valencia. He was the only one on the west Coast, that I knew of, with a Buick torque plate. He'd done Scott's 72 Stage I car several years ago. Scott won the bracket at Vegas last year. Directions for clearences given to me by Dave Knudsen were given to Grubbs with all the parts.
Assembly and machine work came to about 1700. The motor always smoked a little from day one.
It just seemed to get worse over time. With a smoke stack like column of smoke and oil blowing out of the dip stick hole now, major ring problems seem to be the acknowledged gremlin. A leak down test shows massive % loss across the board.
Jim Grubbs has offered to come to where the car is and have a look. He's a very good guy. I'll let the list know what the results are. Thanks for your input as well as Mr. & Mrs. W.

Len