I looked at the kit NAPA has this morning........it had metal rings but the clutches were the stock smooth style. I found it strange that the listing was either '65-'66 or '67-'80. I really want those "waffle" clutches you mentioned. Also, this NAPA kit had 4 steel wave plates, 2- .077 and 2- .091 plates included in the kit. My price was $75 but I have an account. On Monday I'm going to a local transmission parts supply to see what they have. Also, I wanted to mention my '67 parts tranny (BT) had a #14 governor......the only difference I can see between it and the #11 is the weaker yellow springs. Wouldn't that make it shift earlier? The weights are a little different where they attach to the body:
The gov on the left should be the #14. The lighter weights actually make the trans shift later. The governor is pressurized on startup, moving the internal valve against the weights which moves them inward. As the vehicle moves, the output shaft rotates the governor. As the gov rotates, a combination of spring pressure and the larger outer weights exerts force against the valve moving it inward and opening the passage that now feeds GOV pressure to the shift valves. At a given point, the outer weights move away from the inner ones leaving them to do the job of opening the passage more to increase GOV pressure. The inner weights and springs are now what controls the pressure. Lighter springs and weights delay the opening of the inner valve and delaying pressure to upshift the trans at full throttle against detent pressure. This is why only trimming the inner weights results in later full throttle shifts. The springs react against the inner weights at lower rpm's and thereby tends to affect the full throttle 1-2 shift more than the 2-3. It affects both, but weaker springs delay the 1-2 shift more. As to clutch plates, below is a pic of an intermediate Raybestos waffle plate. This will give you an idea of what they look like and how to make sure you get the correct ones. Hard to notice in the pic, but these intermediate plates are flat. If you look at you OEM ones from either trans, you will notice that they are actually waved. This results in a bit of a cushion to the 1-2 shift along with the cushioning effect from the waved steel plates. The flat plates also create a larger clearance in the clutch pack, which is why it is necessary to get different sized steel plates to adjust the clearance. It is harder to get different sizes for the intermediate pack, but they do exist (have to get the p/n for you). What I have done is to have the intermediate pressure plate cut down so that 4 flat steel plates can be used instead of 3.
This next pic is of the Alto racing "red" plates. They are forward/direct plates and are very good pieces, just more pricey. Sorry, no pics of the Raybestos "blue". They are too expensive to keep hanging around. Hard to tell by the pic, but they are very different than the OEM pieces. It just doesn't show up in the picture. If you can get the Alto ones at a reasonable price, don't hesitate. The waffle ones will work just fine, so don't drive yourself nuts.
I could shave that pressure plate down on my lathe. How much about do I need to take off? I molested the '73 valve body I will be using today :Brow: ........if only for my own reference, I photo'd as I went along. This first pix is trivial, but it's the manual valve, the one that is connected to the PRNDL:
Next is the 3-2 downshift valve (the one that's missing on all of the stock SP trannies except station wagon models)
This valve is called the "1-2 accumulator"........Mark, is this the one you said I should put a spring in the front side? It had no spring in it. uzzled:
This is the detent valve.......I assume it's the one that causes the shifts to be later when you floor it :Brow: :
This is the front servo accumulator (I think)........doesn't this thing help make the 1-2 shift more smooth? I couldn't get the SOB apart........it looks like I'm gonna have to make a tool out of a c clamp :rant: Do you know any tricks to get this apart Mark?
That is the valve. The spring needs to be under the small end of the valve nearest the VB in your pic. The stiffer the spring, the firmer the shift. Use the natural spring in the rear servo piston, not the blue one. For the firmest shift, use a piece of 1/4" copper tubing cut to hold the valve against the aluminum retainer in place of the spring. The tubing should be just long enough to keep the aluminum retained flush against the roll pin when installed. It takes some work to fit it, but is worth the effort. Just measured the pressure plate. Stock is .340 and the cut down one comes up at about .262, so you want to take of approx. .080 inch. My intent was to take off less than the thickness of 1 flat steel plate. This reduces the clearance in the clutch pack. Am fairly sure that the flat plates are around .100 so that will allow you to use 4 steels instead of 3 and take up the extra clearance. You want to be around .070 max clearance (my preference) and no less that .030 as you don't want it too tight.
That aluminum piston is the 2-3 accumulator. The spring under there (could be a green one) should be left out. The weaker that spring, the firmer the 2-3 shift. There are 2 ways to get it out. CAREFULLY compress the piston in a vise far enough to get the "E" clip out. A small screwdriver works, but don't let the clip fly away. We used to call it a JC clip. If you lose it, you are gonna say JC where do I get another one. :Brow: Another way is to use a big channel lock pliers to hold the piston in and do the same to get the clip out. DO NOT use that aluminum piston. You need the flat one in the 66 VB. The raised edges will now work with the band apply piston you took out of the case. Yes, the rear servo. No spring in the small one in the VB.
Notice the different springs.....the light green one on the left was from the '73VB, the dark green was from the '66VB, and the red was from the '67VB. It's the longest one. The '73 VB used a teflon ring.......the other 2 used a metal one. I'm confused Mark........the front servo accumulator controls the 2-3 shift and the rear servo accumulator controls the 1-2? I'm afraid that if I leave that spring out in addition to not using any wavy plates in the clutches I'll have shifts that are too harsh ou:
It sounds strange, but yes the front servo is 2-3 and the rear servo is 1-2. The reason for the 1-2 accumulator being in the rear servo is that the rear band comes on in L1 and the 1-2 accumulator helps transition the manual downshift smoothly. The same thing happens with the 2-3 accumulator it helps cushion the front band apply when it comes on in L2. So, they are actually where they should be. As to the leaving the spring out, you are not eliminating the accumulator completely as it will still function with the spring out. If just won't cushion as much. I don't think the 2-3 will be that harsh. All Stage 1 transmissions use no wave plates in the direct clutch and the accumulator spring used is so soft you can compress it by hand. Keep in mind that you have a heavy car with 2 4bbl carbs. Good solid shifts will help both performance and durabilty. If you feel that you absolutely must use a spring in there, use the red one. You actually have 3 different ones. The light green is actually yellow (stained from ATF), a green one and the red. Yellow is the stiffest, green next and the red. I use the red spring when I remove the center seal in the direct clutch. You are not doing that, so we won't go into it. There are softer springs, orange, pink, gray and white. Stage 1 transmissions normally use the white which is the softest. If I were rebuilding the trans, I would leave any spring out. You can always back off on the modulator to soften the shifts for street driving if they are too crisp.
Mark, I've heard good about the Alto plates, but not the Kolene steels that are generally marketed with them. Basically they don't do any better than a standard steel plate but are a LOT more money. What are your thoughts?
Adam, Haven't heard of the Kolene steel plates before. If I don't get new, I just take good used ones and sand them with 220 grit emery paper. What I have found with many "new" steels are that they are not new but resurfaced used. I have had clearance problems because the .0915" ones are more like .0895 or less. The smaller plates will then result in too much clutch pack clearance. For this reason I save all the plates from cores and use what I need to get the clearances right. It is more work to sand them, but I feel you get a better job. Again, new is always better if they are the right size.
Would it be a good idea to bead blast the metal clutch plates instead of sanding them? Also, what is your opinion about running synthetic tranny fluid?
Kolene's are cryo-treated. My 200-4r guy said they are a waste of money and don't seem to do anything better than the standard plates. Of course Alto says otherwise. He likes the red friction plates but still prefers blue for the harshest applications.
