REar sway bar.. Are they really that good?

Steve,
GW has been saying that about their suspensions forever. It is complete BS in my opinion. I came from the 5.0 mustang world recently. The best suspension out there for them is the Maximum Motorsports stuff. They actually design their parts to articulate better. Heres the problem : With our 4 link rear susp(same design as the Mustang) the system has a inherent binding in it. Stock isnt too bad because the rubber bushing flex so much. When you swap the control arms for boxes pieces with poly bushing, you INCREASE the amount of bind. This makes the suspenson stiffer in the straight(drag racing) and turns, but it isnt right(makes for a worse ride normally also. Now GW uses Delrin bushings. Have you ever seen them? they are made out of aluminum with a hard plastic insert(Delrin). There is no way that is going to eliminate bind and increase articulation. The reason they say not to use a rear bar with their arms is becuase the arms create so much bind that the suspension doesnt move enough for the bar to really do anything, and the addition of the bar would make the rear roll resistence so high nothing back there would move.
I plan to make my own control arms. I will use a heim joint(rod end) at the lower rearend point, with a medium firm poly bushing at the lower frame. I will probably build an adjustible upper arm with a rod end at the frame, and a med firm poly bushing in the rear upper location(unless anyone knows who makes a sperical bearing type for there).
As for the sway bar, I will use an aftermarket bar around 1 1/8" with some coilover shocks for adjustability.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Just for some background on me : I worked for 5 years at a road race suspension shop, where I was fortunate to work with Eibach, Suspension Techniques, TRD, and a couple Formula Ford racers doing development work. We even did the spring and swaybar development for the Shogun(a Ford Festiva with a midengine Taurus SHO motor).
Phil

 

alrright

ok guys... im letting the cat out of the bag....
can someone convert a word file into a PDF? 25 pages or so?

my sr project is comparing the A body lower suspension arms..

I did both factory styles (U shaped and boxed) one with a plate added to the factory U shape style, hotchkis and Jegs designs.

the word doc is 9 mb though. lots of illistrations.


im comparing the amount of twist these arms have with a torsional loading

It is actually coming out of the printer as I write this.


You guys maybe intrested in looking at this.

The loading simulates a torque of 880 inch pounds on the component.

Nate

I will e-mail you the file if you like also. though again its pretty big 9mb

 

Nate, I'd like to have that doc if you would email it to me please.
Was this comparing each arm off of the car or on the car? I would thing that a boxed stock arm would be stiff enough, its how the busings are done that makes some arms suck.
Phil
philnsyrep@hostingmojo.com

 

structure

the report dosen't deal with the bushing its just the structure of the arm. there are a few points I would have liked to cover but due to time constraints it wasn't possable.

Nate

 

There are lots of ways to convert to PDF.

One good way is to go to www.openoffice.org and download the suite. It is comparable to M$Office, will open and save .doc (and other M$) format(s), and can also save to PDF.

You can also do a google search for the GhostScript printer.

Just be careful, you can lose image quality in the PDF - at least when its printed.

 

Hmmm...

Nate: I would like a copy of your project, too: SBRMD@AOL.COM

Phil: Given what you've said, what do you think a guy like me, who just wants his Sportwagon to go around cloverleafs at 40 mph but is not going to the dragstrip, should do? It's sounding like factory boxed arms with rubber bushings and a 1" bar may be plenty, but hemispherical bushings and all that sure have me intrigued.

What do you think?

Best,
Steve

 

Steve, since you are not concerned with the track, I 'd do just what you suggested. Boxed stock arms, with new rubber bushings, and the swaybar should make a good difference for you. you could also get slightly stiffer, lower springs(maybe 1" lower). The springs will help lower your center of gravity(which helps handling) and the higher spring rate will control the axle better, as well ar give you a little nicer look.
For what you want,the rod end arms will be too much, plus they transmitt more road noise and vibration to the chassis.
Phil

 

Nate I can convert your file over to PDF if you need it done still.

On to the subject of sway bars, does anyone carry these for the B Bodies?

 

Rear sway bar's are awesome. They are a must for a buick in my opinion. They will get rid of the whole hey i'm in a boat while i'm taking a turn feel. As I've mentioned in other posts my past project a 1984 mustang lx well it's suspension was good until I swaped it with the 87gt's and that meant adding a rear sway bar. The rear sway bar really helps, and if I had money for it i'd get one for my buick because I don't like bracing myself to take turns all the time.

 

Xarva,

Is that your daily driver in your avatar?:grin: If you're parting that 72, let me know! I might have a few requests:Brow:

 

Phil,
I think you are right on with the rear suspension. GW is correct about eliminating bind but did not offer the products to do it. Both Currie and Edelbrock offer spherical at the frame adjustable upper control arms. I went with the Edelbrock because it was cheaper than the Currie. So the combination I ended up with is Edelbrock upper and Currie lower control arms. With this setup both control arms are spherical at the frame and poly at the axle.

Is there a big advantage to coil overs beside adjustability? I know at the track they are great because they are so easy to tune. But if the springs and shocks are good I see no other advantage.

I do keep thinking about adding a panhard rod. Not hard to build and should really eliminate any wiggle.

 

sailbrd,
How much were the Currie and Ebrock arms if you dont mind saying?
As for the coilovers, basically the real advantage is the adjustability. Easy to change springrates, ride height, and with the right shocks, shock dampning. If you dont feel the need to do all that fine tuning they dont offer anything special.
With the arms you have there shouldnt be much "wiggle" from the rear. What you probably feel is the car at the point where it wants to roll more, but it's not totally "sure" it wants to. Also, taller sidewall tires can get that feeling as the sidewalls are starting to roll under the wheel. A panhard bar may help some, but I would think a slightly bigger rear swaybar or stiffer springs or just stiffer shocks may cure most of that.
Phil

 

The Currie lowers are $225 and the Edelbrock uppers are about $200. I am in the process of building now. As soon as I am done cleaning and painting (lot easier with all that stuff gone) I will start putting it together. Probably will need the driveshaft shortened (putting in 12 bolt) but hope to have it put together by next weekend.

The Edelbrocks are such a good looking part it seems a shame that no one will see them.

 

requests

I've tried sending it to you guys but its too big.

acrobat writer is downloading nicely now though from kazaa.. so hopefuly i'll have a much smaller version to send you guys.

nate

 

Teach me, guys!

Doug and Phil: Thanks for your input, guys. Can you tell me, though, what exactly a "heim" joint is? Is this better than the del-a-lum that GW touts for the posterior end of their lower control arms, and why? And Doug, does your Currie/Edlebrock set-up include a rear sway bar? BTW, does Currie have a website?

Thanks in advance,
Steve.

 

This is what is known as a "Johnny Joint" as on the Currie and Ebrock arms -]Johnny Joint

And this is a rod end/heim joint-]ROD END

they both allow for free suspension articulation(movement) without binding.

Currie Ent

 

Finally dragged myself out from under the car. Good links on the heim joint and the Johnny Joint. Both function on the same principle but the Johnny Joint sure looks like a nice piece.

As to sway bars. The Currie does have sway bar attachment points. I will use sway bars front and rear. I am currently collecting any bars that will work with A-bodies. I will then use them to tune the suspension.

As to what kind of joint to use where, it would depend on the plane of movement wanted. The del-a-lum GW device is a bushing and does not allow any articulation at all. I think this is a great device for the front control arms on a race car or a racical street car. On the rear I am using articulated joints at the frame and poly bushings at the axle. With the articulated joints at the frame there should not be any binding.

 

Phil,

You asked if anyone knew of a spherical upper rearend bushing. I use a two piece billet unit from Wolfe Racecraft. They web site is at www.wolfracecraft.com . It has like a captured rod end inside it.

While I got you on the phone, let me run the spec's of my rear suspension by you. You seem knowlegeable on the subject so any comments are very welcome. This is for drag racing only.

GW lowers which have the delrine bushing at the rearend and a sperical set up at the frame. Southside uppers which are just boxed arms with a solid bushing at the frame, and they're attached to the billet sperical bushing at the rear end. HAL 12-way adjustable billet shocks. And the real trick piece that made a huge difference in all asspects of how the car performes (launch, turning and stopping) is a Wolfe Racecraft anti-roll bar. Made of strong 1 1/4 x .375"wall Cromoly tubing. It goes from frame rail to frame rail above the rear end. It has greasable bushings on each end. It's attached to the rearend housing with double adjustable links with rod ends.

With this set up you need very little pre-load. So far my best 60' is a 1.522. I just seems like there is a slight bind when the car is just setting there. Maybe my springs are to stiff (they're very stiff) but when I try and push down on the rear of the car it's not as free as you'd think.

thanks for the time

 

Shayne,
I know of Wolfe. They are bigtime in the Mustang drag world. Good to see they do the sperical bearings for GM also.
As for your suspension, I have never liked solid bushings in a 4 link like the a-body or mustang. Solid bushings create a bind in these suspensions.
I personally would replace your uppers with something like the Currie or Edelbrok with the spherical bearing at the frame. I think you will notice a nicer feel in the rear if you did that. As I've said before, I dont like the delrin bushigs for this type of rear, they just create binding. For the front control arms, absolutly awesome, since the arm just pivots in one arc, not 2 like the rear arms. Your shocks are some of the best available, and the same ones I plan on using(in coilover form). The Wolfe swaybar is a great piece. Although for a street car it may be a bit stiff. but awesome for straight, no twist launches at the strip!
What springs are you using? I would bet they arent too bad once you change upper arms.
Phil

 

From i know the front sway bar has to always be larger than the rear bar,i am using 1 1/4 in the front and 1 1/8 in the rear.


Thanks