What is the smallest cam you can get away with in order to get 500 hp given: ported iron stg 1 heads, B4B, 10:1 CR, headers, 93 octane, TQ or QJ? How would an SP1 affect the answer?
Flow numbers on the heads? Here is a dyno test graph to view... Scotty told me that this motor's heads flowed about 260 cfm. http://www.trishieldperf.com/ta_413.htm IF you have to have that 500 number, I have only seen 1 test that claimed to make 500 real HP, with less than 238* intake duration, and that was a 235* duration cam. I don't believe you will achieve an honest to God 500 with less cam, with iron heads. In reality, there are a ton of 475-485 Hp cars out there, but prolly very few 500+ HP ones, in full street trim, on pump gas. That's an observation from a guy who had to make 3 trips to the dyno, with that first motor, to attain that "magical" number, with a dual plane intake. Made it the second trip with a single plane, but I knew that in that combo,that was not the manifold I wanted to run. 3000 stall converter, 3.55 or higher gears, and you will need that SP-1, if you have to have the 500, unless your combo is well refined. Also, not for the faint of heart. If the tune up and engine sealing is dead on, these size cams are the biggest you can run on the street, and operate all the accessories and brakes. I have done it a couple of two/three times, but it is right to the limit of what your going to want to be "comfortable" with, in a real street car. I might suggest not focusing so much on that number, and go with a 413 instead, might make your life easier. I used to always tell folks to put that 238/248 112 LC cam in, but a few had some issues with it, so now I suggest you don't focus so much on that number.. If you choose to run a bigger cam than the 413, you must have: Upgraded fuel system - STG 1 pump good to 475 HP.. and that's pushing it. 450 is a safer number. I suggest an electric "helper pump" for on demand use only, or a full electric system. An MSD ignition system, and at least 24* initial timing. And the 2 gauge battery cables to start the car, with that much initial. 3000+ Stall converter, or VP setup 3.55 or higher gears.. I would like to see you have 3.73's with even a 413 and the Sp-1 you will hurt your strip times with any less gear. Bigger cam/manifold combo makes more HP, but moves the torque curve up higher.. it does not make less, just moves it. That's one of the ways it makes the HP number (recalling that HP is TorquexRPM/5252.) You should also run a 1" spacer with the Sp-1. and at least an 800 CFM Q-jet, worked with a big needle and seat, and the highest float level you can get away with.. that carb is the hardest to keep full of fuel, under 500 HP usage. Dual needle and seat Holley or TQ (1000) is easier to keep the bowls full. It should also be noted that when I put those cars together, I used the Performer intake.. mainly because of hood clearance issues, but the smaller manifold also pulls more vacuum at idle. But it will cost you about 20 HP, over an Sp-1. I have made 532 HP, with a 1000 TQ, 238 cam, and performer, with good iron heads. Here is that dyno sheet.. That has a dual plane manifold on it (Performer) http://www.trishieldperf.com/level_2_engine.htm Be advised... DO NOT skip any of the recommendations I have laid out, if your going to try for that 500 number, with the bigger cam, and have a real street car at the same time. Or you more than likely going to have "issues", and blame it all on the cam. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, a different approach.. Lots of guys run way into the 12's, with the "torque motor".. decent heads, smaller cam, dual plane manifold. With slicks, or sticky DOT's, a solid 455 is capable of moving that mass to those times, and about 110 mph or so, before it runs out of steam. Lots of guys here do it, and it's an easier car to live with, no doubt. Building the lower speed torque combination also cheaper, for sure. Or... save up for aluminum STG 1 heads.. This is my favorite street combo now, and I don't even have to drive the car, to tell you that.. http://www.trishieldperf.com/level_1_ah_engine.htm Easy to live with, yet faster than the bigger cammed iron motors.. the best of both worlds! JW
What exactly are you looking for the car to do? If you're looking for 12's, you can do that easily without being so concerned about 500 hp. My car made 375 on the chassis dyno at Norwalk this year, my car weighs 4100 lbs.!!!! and I've got a 2500 stall in my th400 with 3.73 gears. Best so far is a 12.29 at 110 mph. And I am in the processing of degreeing my cam in. I found that installed straight up, it was at 104 degrees intake lobe center and the cam card call for 109 degrees. If I can get it closer to 109, that should be worth 20 hp or so I hope, and maybe get me close to cracking into the 11's. A 3500 stall converter from Earick Racing will be next, depending on the gains with the cam.
Jim, Lift? Jim, How does lift play into the smallest cam to make 500 hp? I am using a Lunati Cam (TT SP235) lift is .492 in/ex duration 238/248. I have the TA intake, stage 1 heads (minor port),69 rockers, holley 950. I don't think I am making 500 horse. I don't have flow numbers but do you yhink that is where I could be loosing hp ? Where does lift come into play? Thanks, Mark
Lift is not a huge factor with these cams, that's why the majority of iron head cams have right around .500 lift. The heads simply don't flow beyond that, without major port work. Intake duration is where it's at, along with enough exhaust duration to get the job done, and the lobe center separation angle and intake valve closing point, that best suits the combo being built. Simply put, if the heads won't flow at high valve lift numbers, you need to keep the valve open longer. But there is a cost to that, in raising the torque curve. Fine if your working on a combo that works with that, not so good if your combo does not take that into consideration. Case in point. I have built 2 complete cars, with 238* intake duration cams. We know both those cars would be faster on the dragstrip, with a single plane intake, 3500 stall converter, and 4.11 gears. No question there. But, the cars were built for a completely different purpose... to be able to drive them around, and function all the accessories, and for the typically street deal.. .a quick "from a roll" chase thru the gears. Not simply for a standing start acceleration contest. I mean, what's the point of that, on a street car, with real street tires.. (not sticky DOT's, which are really slicks with grooves, more or less, and not something your going to want to drive across country with.) Those cars both run high 11's at the strip, even with the compromise of the dual plane intake, gears and converter. But from a 20 mph roll, when they hook up solid some time in the middle of second gear they are flat out scary fast. Crusing along at 60 mph, in drive, and nailing the gas, will scare the crap out of the average guy, when the trans automatically downshifts, and the whole front of the car pics up.. and it goes like hell, until you lift. That's what that combo is designed to do, and it's a ball to drive. JW
Scary fast, huh? That is what I hope to end up with when you are done, Jim! I want my car to make a passenger say " oh S@*t " when i punch it from a roll! That makes for a fun car to drive, which is what I want. Later, Brian :grin: :grin: :grin:
Jim - I'd love to hear more about these buildups....or have we already ?? Im getting a little tired of the mean lope of the 413 (which was supposedly ground on 118 LS) and If i can make the same power or more with milder manners Id go for it. If you remember....My heads flow somewheres around 280+ In, 180+ out with small 59CC's W/ 1.6 RR's, TA S1 valves and springs, block is .040 over, TRW forged and notched @ just under 10:1, stock rods, stock crank .010 under, B4B, Holley 850 , TH400 with gearset and 3.08 12 bolt that makes 1st look like 3.42 and second look like 3.23 I've seen a traction limited 12.39 once with a 3.42 rear and poor 60'. Car ran an easy 12.66 last year w/ 1+ year old tune (plugs, cap , etc) and forgetting to put the K&N on - Stock aircleaner offset B/C of B4B ou: Love some input here - streetablility (as in Fill up with 93 and go away for a week) is Priority #1.....which the car does well now. BTW.....I patiently await your feedback about the GearVendor adventure. Im either going to go that route or a 4L80E in a few years. Could you do a VP for the 4L80E ?? that would be Shweeeet !!!
Thanks for the info guys. Jim, The car is a 4-speed (soon to be 5-speed possibly with an aluminum flywheel), w/ 3.31 . No, I'm not fixated or obsessed with the 500 number, but it sure would be nice to throw around in conversations. 70gsconv, I'm just looking for something that is fast, it won't be a strip-only car, that I can drive and enjoy on the street, you know plop the wife and kids in and cruise down to Sonic, and when I drop them off blast down to the strip. I would love to do aluminum heads but the budget, as I have it laid out now, just won't support those.
Alan.. If you have a 413 ground on a 5* wider lobe center, it should purr like a pussy cat at idle.. The 238 cam I refer to is the 290-08H. Even with all the tricks, it's got a mean idle.. No way smoother than a 413 on a 118 LC would be.. No VP for a 4L80E.. but 400 with GV unit.. :TU: That could be done.
331's and a stick... Sure, you could do the 500 HP deal.. That's the 290-08H cam from TA... make sure you follow all my reccomendations.. and you will enjoy it.. I have a 52 year old banker, and a 36 Year old Salesman who drive cars with that cam all the time.. They both love it... JW
Scott, my car is by no means a strip-only vehicle. I've got power steering, power brakes, air. I love taking a drive on Saturdays with the wife and kinder. Nothing like seeing the faces on guys when there's two child seats in the back. I also drive the car to work, 30 miles each way, whenever weather permits. I just knew from the start when I bought this car that I wanted something as fast as a Viper, but didn't look like it. I'm pretty much there. Only the car's monster back tires really give it away now that I've gotten it to idle nice. Exhaust just sounds a little loud. Nothing that would rattle windows. But it's definitely NOT a pure stocker. Lifting the hood does reveal the headers and, if you look the Holley. And if someone REALLY knows what they're looking at, they'll figure out the SP1 isn't stock; even though it says Buick on the number 1 runner. I fool most of the Ricers with that one, "Yea, of course it's a factory high rise. It says Buick right on it!". They buy it every time.
Jim, What would be a basic buildup of one these "torque motors"? I'm planning on a rebuild on my old 455 i have sitting in the garage and trying to figure out where to go with it. I've got a 455 block, and the 68 430 big port heads, and I'm thinking your description matches pretty much what I'm looking for out of my car, and if it's cheaper like you said, then that definitely makes me HAPPY. Is this something I could pull off with my heads, assuming they check out okay for cracks, etc. ?Thanks for any imput!
Hey, i'm rebuilding my buick electra engine everythings going to stay pretty much stock except the edelbrock performer intake and edelbrock performer 750 carb would the lunati hemi killer cam be a good choice? It's not a stage 1 engine.
Scott, We developed a new cam grind for our street pump gas customers. The development engine incorporated a modest 9.2:1 compression ratio, ported stage one-iron cylinder heads, SP1 intake manifold, 850 Q-jet, and our Ultimate 500 cam. The combination netted over 500HP. The cam is .500 .520 lift 230 240 duration with a 112 lobe center. This cam idles nicely at 750 RPM and makes 13+ inches of vacuum. This cam pulls like a freight train from 3500-5500 RPM. This combination on its first time to the track with 3:73 gear, and drag radials went 11.80 @ 114 MPH through the exhaust, with a 1.95 60 time. This car will run in the mid 11s with some chassis tuning. This cam is a proven performer.
Sounds like a great combo! What is the weight of the test car? Are you using 92 octane? I wonder what is the limit with an aluminum headed engine on pump gas?
The car weighs 3800 lbs. Yes we used 92-octane fuel. We are currently testing a 11.5:1 engine using 94 octane and have previously been successful with even more compression. These combinations running higher compression with pump gas take a great deal of patience and dollars to achieve.
Jim, Does the 1" spacer on the SP1 also make a big difference with large carbs also? In my case a 1050 Holley. My car still scares me with 275-15 radials but I have 4.10 gears so it not a real top end car. Tom
Just as I check my e-mail i'm like cool someone replied to my question! BUT NO! someone ignored my question and started talking about all this other crap.
